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Yet another addition - earlyish Air Arms S410 TDR

Discussion in 'Anything Airgun Related' started by cloverleaf, Sep 30, 2014.

  1. cloverleaf

    cloverleaf Super Moderator Staff Member Mod/Admin

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    Whilst lamenting my current lack of room in the gun cupboard earlier, something dropped into my lap at a good price :rolleyes: :p

    It's an Air Arms S410 TDR of 2004 vintage, unfortunately in the knuckle-dragger's calibre..

    I'm not too hot on TDRs, however IIRC the earliest had a fatter, shorter barrel (possibly shrouded? *EDIT* in fact neither fatter nor shrouded *EDIT*) and short (200mm) cylinder. Then the barrel became a bit longer and unshrouded, then both barrel and cylinder grew to the size of the standard carbine items. This gun is one of the middling *EDIT* early *EDIT* ones (so still retains the compact character of the original idea, IMO) and best of all it predates anti-tamper - which is a must IMO as it's a particular gobsh*te on the TDR; much moreso than on the standard rifles.

    Anyway, it needs some work but I don't mind giving it a bit of a birthday.. undecided yet whether to keep it or move it on once the work is done as I have no use for it but I think it could be quite a nice, interesting little rifle.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

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    [​IMG]

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    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

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    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    So, what's wrong with it? A quick glance over the gun revealed the following issues:

    - A few marks on the anodised bits - stock, striker housing rear, accessory rail, filler cap, barrel band, mod
    - Some light corrosion on the barrel, cylinder, safety and mod screw
    - Black paint overspray on the mod, barrel and cylinder
    - Small smears of paint on the stock
    - Water damage to finish on stock
    - Marks on the striker housing (beneath the finish, I suspect present since new)
    - Potential moisture damage on anodising of trigger block
    - Oxidation and general dirt on the stock fixture wheel
    - Excessive muzzle energy, low in the fill pressure range (exhaust valve, anyone?)
    - Properly sloppy loading bolt within action block
    - Poorly setup trigger
    - Only one mag
    - Missing fill adaptor (but I should be taking receipt of it at a later date, if the seller keeps their word)
    - "Made in England" laser etching on the block has a decidedly "3d" (p****d) air about it
    - Generally dirty case


    Importantly there's no major damage on any of the (now unobtainable) ally bits (breech block, striker housing, valve housing..); the 'scope rails being mint and un-crimped.

    The plan is to strip the gun down to component parts and give everything a good clean - I'm thinking that nitromors won't hurt the bluing or anodising, but will get googling before I use any. Failing that it'll be wire wool and oil to remove the paint.. The loading bolt will be replaced with a new, correctly-sized polished item and the striker guide rail will be polished.

    The exhaust valve will be inspected and replaced as necessary - according to my records the gun dates from around the changeover from the earlier, better white nylon valves to the later, p**s-poor black valves. While the muzzle energy behaviour suggests valve extrusion; I know the TDR is renown for poor velocity / pressure behaviour and suspect this might be down to its different striker spring setup - so will be interested to see what sort of valve is lurking inside.

    Everything will go back together in left-handed configuration, with proper lubrication and new seals as nec. (the gauge dogleg seals are always shafted, while the filler passing my ear at a fair rate of knots earlier courtesy of 190bar's worth of motive pressure suggests that the fill valve seals need doing too :p

    I plan to set the gun up to give around 11.5ftlb with an operating pressure range of 190-120ish bar. I suspect the striker spring is a bit limp compared to the standard item, so will probably favour a wider port and lower fill pressure to start with - hopefully some spacers on the striker will sort this out.

    Finally if I can be arsed I'll abuse the stock hard with some alkanet and oil in an effort to darken it up / give it a bit more character.

    Anyway, if anyone's interested I'll keep the forum updated as to my progress :)
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2019
  2. Stevie Darling

    Stevie Darling Sexual tyrannosaurus

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    Always nice to see a refurb!

    but it does look in pretty good nick:)
     
  3. The Robin

    The Robin Super Moderator Staff Member Mod/Admin

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    I will be following what you get up to on this nice little project :up:
     
  4. Barni

    Barni Donator

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    Another project ? You have too much time on your hands :)

    Good luck ... will be an interesting thread as i nearly picked one of these up a while back ( why i didnt i still dont know ! )

    Atb :)
     
  5. RED1 TOM

    RED1 TOM Well-Known Member

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    Nice, pretty little thing that mate, they look so well made !!
     
  6. essex sniper

    essex sniper Banned

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    Im not into photography but I was like looking at your pictures ..how do you get them so good.nice rifle atb
     
  7. Speed

    Speed Busy Member

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    nice rifle, i spent a while looking for a .177 tdr but i never dropped on one, so i opted for a ultra instead but i still fancy a tdr
     
  8. cloverleaf

    cloverleaf Super Moderator Staff Member Mod/Admin

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    Cheers guys!

    Yup, while not mint it's definitely not a shed.. it's just been neglected and needs a bit of work to get it working properly / looking nice again.


    Too much time / too little willpower... :p


    Ta - you'll find my guide here :up:



    So.. the plan was to whip the rifle to bits today, clean it up / sort it out, then take it up the club to see what it could do.

    Predictably this didn't happen, but some progress was made.

    In the very welcome absence of anti-tamper the rifle was in bits within 5 minutes. The striker assy of the TDR differs from that of other 400 series guns as it has holes in its rear face to accommodate the bolt-on butt..

    [​IMG]


    ..as well as pins in its front face to mate with the exhaust valve housing:

    [​IMG]


    Initial inspection showed everything to be in generally good nick, but some bits were a bit manky..

    [​IMG]


    The striker was a bit crusty; having evidently been damp at some point. It had corroded worst inside, but the outside had patches of light corrosion as well..

    [​IMG]


    The mainspring had been spaced out with a washer for a normal S400 so the ID is too large; allowing it to flop about. The TDR's striker has a smaller OD rear portion to accept the larger OD wire of its shorter, stiffer striker spring..

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    The internal corrosion of the striker had been depositing rust on surfaces inside its housing:

    [​IMG]



    The striker guide rail was covered in a mixture of dried grease and rust, while the finish on it was pretty poor (note the two holes in the exhaust valve body for the locating pins in the striker housing)..

    [​IMG]

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    The pressure gauge dogleg O-ring had seen better days - these are often stuck fast to the exhaust valve housing and just fall apart when removed.

    [​IMG]


    The mag indexing system is full of ally dust (presumably rubbed off the mag by the lifter) and running pretty dry:

    [​IMG]


    Filthy bolt handle..

    [​IMG]


    The loading bolt shank is around 0.10mm undersize on the OD, at 7.88mm. There is obvious play when fitted, so this will be binned in favour of a new one:

    [​IMG]


    Unfortunately the exhaust valve turned out to be one of the later black (Censored) offerings; and was totally ruined. The extrusion has to be in the region of 0.2mm and is amongst the worst I've seen.

    [​IMG]


    Once in bits the rifle was cleaned up. Acetone convincingly failed to remove the paint on the barrel and cylinder, so out came the 0000 wire wool and oil. Working slowly and gently, spinning the part in my hand while holding the wool against it, the paint came off. Some further polishing with kitchen paper brought up a nice shine:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    The barrel has the oft-encountered marks beneath the band, but other than that is is pretty good shape..

    [​IMG]


    ..as is the breech block, which is unmarked as far as I can see:

    [​IMG]


    The exhaust valve housing was cleaned up and the striker guide rail polished. It started off a bit under-size at around 7.93mm, and ended up a bit more undersize at 7.905mm. The radial machining marks were pretty deep and required 180grit paper at the start to remove them; the main shank was done in a drill, the reduced diameter end by hand as I couldn't fit it in the drill and the finish is less critical. Once all polished and cleaned, a new, polished exhaust valve was fitted.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    The striker was cleaned up using 400 grit wet and dry on the rear portion followed by Autosol. The corrosion on the inside and outside was removed with 0000 wire wool and oil, which was also used to clean the bores of the bearings. The finish on the rear portion was pretty poor, however I'd have had to have removed a lot of material to get rid of the deeper scores; so settled for a light polish to remove the worst.

    [​IMG]


    Shiny striker back on the shiny rail - the striker now glides effortlessly on the rail :cool:

    [​IMG]


    Finally a new loading bolt shank was polished, ready to be fitted when the gun goes back together.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    All in all I'm pleased with how it's progressing and hope that I might get it back together by the end of the week :)
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2019
  9. Barni

    Barni Donator

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    You do realise that your posts are some of the best. Great photos and intricate details ...... but i know you are down to earth when you use words like " manky , crusty and Censored " to describe things :)

    Well done with what you have done so far ..... should be better than new when finished :up:

    Atb
     
  10. cloverleaf

    cloverleaf Super Moderator Staff Member Mod/Admin

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    Thanks :D

    Tbh I've probably spent longer taking / editing the photos and writing the posts than I have actually working on the gun.. so it makes it all worthwhile if I know people enjoy reading my threads / find them of use :)

    Might hopefully make a bit more progress later in the day, all being well..
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2014
    Bodhizafa likes this.
  11. Gunfun

    Gunfun Engaging Member

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    I brought a second hand Hydrographics TDR about 4 years ago, almost completely covered with Realtree camo, it had been converted to .177 and had a weighted fore end extension fitted (maybe by Jon Sykes).
    Its a great gun, the weighted fore end extension really makes it shoot more accurately due to improved balance, I get about 70 shots within 25 fps (great for plinking), but from 155 bar down to 115 bar I get 40 shots within 14 fps which can consistently produce 5 shot groups of sub 20mm at a measured 50 meters with pellets straight from the tin.
    I repositioned the butt pad about an inch lower for a more comfortable off hand shooting position, and added a Daystate silencer (much quieter than the stock silencer) and a matching realtree camo sling.
    Although this gun will cover most air gun activities, I have tried to keep this as a light weight stalker.
    Never had any problems with it apart from replacing the magazine indexing pawl.
    Great gun, hope you enjoy it !
     
  12. RED1 TOM

    RED1 TOM Well-Known Member

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    I am captivated now by this thread, I stand in awe of the attention to detail! my refurb skills are rudimentary compared to Cloverleaf. I thought that I did pretty decent work till I saw this thread. I can only sit at the feet of the master and learn !!

    Keep them coming mate

    Tom
     
  13. cloverleaf

    cloverleaf Super Moderator Staff Member Mod/Admin

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    Thanks - yours sounds nicely sorted. I'd have liked a .177, but what can you do..? :p

    I'd thought the same about adding some weight at the muzzle; although hadn't considered using the accessory rail. Was toying with the idea of lead -lining the mod..


    Cheers - glad you like it. I can't deny that I'm a bit OCD :p

    Tbh all I'm really doing is giving it a bit of a tidy up - often a world of difference can be made just by a bit of polishing and lubrication :)



    I got a bit more done today; starting with the trigger. The assy looked pretty filthy, and upon removal of the side plate I realised that it was bent where it had failed to pull down over the top sear pivot pin. Evidently it'd been like this since new as the plate flat-refused to fit over the pin no matter what orientation I tried. There was also plenty of rust dust on the top sear and surrounding area..

    [​IMG]


    Inside was mainly covered in dry grease and a dusting of assorted particulate crap, with manky looking O-rings and a little light surface corrosion on the trigger and some of the sears..

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    The assy was stripped and everything cleaned - a toothbrush and oil making light work of the dried grease in the housing. The sears were polished up with a bit of blue roll, the safety button worked over lightly with 0000 wire wool and oil - not a perfect job but I'd like to bin the blade asap..

    [​IMG]


    The wonky sideplate was sorted through judicious use of a heavy rubber mallet, the flat bit on the back of a vice and a bit of thin card. I ran a 3mm drill through the offending hole to take off any burrs and it went through with little resistance; the plate still refusing to fit properly. I did consider drilling the hole out to 3.1mm, but instead gently ran around the inside curcumference with a fine round jeweller's file. Very little material needed removing for the plate to fit correctly:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    The striker housing was given a quick brush out and was bolted back to the trigger guard. It then all went into the (padded) vice for the bolt bias pin to be swapped from one side to the other (I'm converting it from RH to LH). It came out pretty easily with the application of some pliers. A little light surface corrosion was polished off in one spot, everything cleaned and the pin refitted in the hole on the LH side of the striker housing:

    [​IMG]


    Having rifled through some AA manuals last night it became apparant that there are no striker spring spacers available in an appropriate size to fit the TDR striker. I considered getting some made, but for now decided to pack out the existing (over-sized) standard S400 item with O-rings. The striker OD at the rear is 11.9mm, the ID of the spacer is 13.2mm; leaving a gap of 0.65mm on the rad. 6x1mm O-rings fitted but were pretty severely stretched; I think a 7x1mm offering would have worked best but in the absence of any of these I fitted a pair of 8x1mm O-rings..

    [​IMG]


    ..then with the help of some oil persuaded the mainspring spacer over them:

    [​IMG]

    They project a little infront of the spacer's face, but compress under spring load so add no additional preload. Generally a tidy little bodge methinks :p


    The rear spring seat was tidied up with the wire wool and protected with a smear of oil, before everything was refitted to the rail:

    [​IMG]


    Next I turned my attention to the breech block - a few small spots of black paint were taken off with a finger nail and some label remover (which I suspect might have done nowt other than making my hands stink like rancid liqourice :rolleyes:).

    I tried removing the barrel but it was reluctant (sometimes they get stock in with excess locking compound from the breech seal carrier) so put some oil through the grub screw holes and left it alone as I didn't need to strip it for any reason and in these circumstances the carrier tends to separate and get stuck inside; which is a ballache. If nececessary I'm sure it'll come out in future with a little heat.

    The loading bolt handle and bolt dog were removed from the shank of the old bolt and put to one side. Old (rough and undersize) and new (polished and correctly-sized) loading bolt shanks:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    The bolt handle was cleaned, temporarily refitted to the old shank and given some abuse with the torch to soften the loctite; allowing the two parts to be separated:

    [​IMG]


    Everything was cleaned up and the handle refitted to the boss in the correct, lefty format ;)

    [​IMG]

    From the state of the knob it appears that the last owner sweated battery acid..


    The loading bolt shank was fitted to the breech block with a smear of moly; more being added liberally to the dog slot before the block was refitted (after the shot was taken):

    [​IMG]


    Next the mag lifter assy was stripped, cleaned, greased and reassembled..

    [​IMG]


    Before the whole lot was bolted together :D

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    The stock was refitted, the trigger adjusted to give a good, clean 2-stage release and the energy tested. At 100bar it was already over 12ftlb, so the screw that shall not be named was wound in a little.. the screw ended up wound all the way in, giving (through firing 2 shots at 20bar increments from 100-180bar) an approximate velocity string with AA fields that starts at 573ft/s at 180bar, peaks at 581ft/s at around 145bar and drops to 574ft/s at 120bar. I reckon it would be giving around 35 good shots from behaviour like this.

    The peak velocity is sailing a little too close to the wind; I'm surprised it still does this with the screw apparently wound in so will have a look at the port tomorrow. I have worked on a S400 in the past that had the adjustor screw on the p**s w.r.t the port; meaning it bottomed out on the side of the hole and wouldn't provide as much restriction as it should have.. do hope that's not the case with this rifle..

    So anyway, it lives! There are still plenty of things to do (mod, barrel brace and filler cap need cleaning of paint spots, mag needs a clean, stock wants refinishing..) but at least now it's in a just-useable state and appears to be functioning well.


    Perusing some old AGW mags last night it appears that I was wrong about the barrel lengths.. I have a review in the Aug '04 issue showing (evidently a prototype) with a cylinder DOM of May '04. This gun differs from production rifles in the method used to attach the stock, barrel length and a few fine details.

    The barrel on the test gun is noticeably shorter than mine (spacing between the muzzle and filler cap is approx. the same as on other 400 series guns) so I suspect the barrel is maybe 300mm long. Despite this, the length is given at 348mm in the specs (the same as mine) suggesting that all early production guns had barrels of this length(50mm ish longer than the prototype), before going to the carbine length bits later. I think my memory of a shrouded model probably comes from seeing those for the yank market..

    I love the look of the gun with the shorter barrel, so might consider getting a Carbine barrel turned down (from the breech end) in future to make the gun even more compact - with a 305mm barrel it would be around 90mm shorter than an S410k :)

    The cylinder on this rifle is dated Sep '04, so it's evidently a pretty early one. I'm tempted to email AA to get a manufacture date but think they might recognise my address and directly forward my correspondence to the bin :p

    Anyway, might get a bit more done tomorrow but I expect work to slow until I've had the chance to get a 'scope on it (which one..?) and take it up the club for a test..
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2019
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  14. Stevie Darling

    Stevie Darling Sexual tyrannosaurus

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    Coming along nicely!

    Always wondered if the range of AA pcp's suffer from hammer bounce??
     
  15. cloverleaf

    cloverleaf Super Moderator Staff Member Mod/Admin

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  16. Stevie Darling

    Stevie Darling Sexual tyrannosaurus

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    The bounce on my ultra drove me mental!

    it sounded like a loud fart when a mod was fitted, an elastic band fixed the problem with a quieter firing cycle and a bonus of 9 more shots.

    A crude but effective fix:)
     
  17. cloverleaf

    cloverleaf Super Moderator Staff Member Mod/Admin

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    Yes, the Ultra is bad for audible bounce at low pressure.. Webley Raiders are nasty for it too. How did you apply the elastic band to kill the bounce?


    Drawing to the end of the large updates, today's first port of call was to inspect the port to see why I couldn't choke it any further with the screw that shall not be named. Looking down the port from above showed the screw to be perfectly central; the "stop" I'd felt just being a tight spot I didn't want to force..

    [​IMG]


    Knowing the velocity peak was a bit low at 145bar I added a 1.25mm spacer to the striker spring (courtesy of anther O-ring) and nipped the port up a touch. According to the fantastical spreadsheet, when the striker hits the valve it now has a similar amount of kinetic energy to that of a standard S400; whereas without the two spacers present (as it would from the factory) it would have 15-20% less energy - hence why I think the TDR has a rep for low shot counts at low fill pressures and poor muzzle energy..

    Happily (and for the first time ever..? :p) the muzzle energy proved to be spot on without adjustment, so was left alone and a string from 200bar put over the chrono (the refill pressure was around 95-100bar):

    [​IMG]


    The gun gave 40 good shots within 1.5% velocity spread at an average of 11.6ftlb; varying between a low of 568ft/s and a high of 576ft/s. Shot to shot consistency was 4ft/s. Ideal fill pressure is 180-185bar and the gun needs refilling at around 110bar. Good numbers for a TDR methinks - certainly pleased with its performance (before the valve inevitably goes south..).

    While all that was going on I bit the bullet and lathered the filler cap, mod and barrel band with paint stripper. After a few minutes soaking the paint spots rubbed off pretty easily; the anodising untouched by the stripper :)

    So, generally very pleased with the rifle and looking forward to testing it out on Monday night. Throughout chronographing everything proved slick in operation, now that the polished bolt is a good fit, the trigger has been set up and everything is properly lubed.

    There are still some jobs that need doing; the most evident being the stock which really lets the side down with its dry, sparse, plain grain and paint stains. That'll be next on the list when I can face countless more hours of flatting and oiling, flatting and oiling, flatting and oiling... :p
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2019
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  18. Stevie Darling

    Stevie Darling Sexual tyrannosaurus

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  19. Tim_B

    Tim_B Pro Poster

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    Thanks for the continued posts - interesting how its coming along.....especially as it will end with a lefty setup. Looking forward to see how the stock will turn out.

    I was looking at the tdr's a while ago, will end up with one one day. I do like the sound of the shortened barrel.

    thanks
    Tim
     
  20. cloverleaf

    cloverleaf Super Moderator Staff Member Mod/Admin

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    Ta - looks like an interesting setup; I think I can just about get my head around how it works :p

    Sadly it doesn't look like a similar setup could be implemented on the 400 series though - have been musing on how to proper de-bounce these rifles for years and still haven't come up with a workable solution..


    No problem - it makes me feel like I've done something to get it all down in words and pictures :D

    Hopefully I'll start attacking the stock tomorrow if I have the energy - it's never going to be as nice as others I've seen, but it's pale, plain-grained blandness demands to be given some love!
     

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