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Question Worst Springer For Hold Sensitivity

Discussion in 'Anything Airgun Related' started by Hiram, Jul 10, 2018.

  1. Hiram

    Hiram Busy Member

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    I've read that some of our brothers here consider the HW99 and HW77/97 as the easiest springers to shoot, as regards hold sensitivity. Is that true? And what are some of the worst?
     
    rabbitwrecker likes this.
  2. rich79

    rich79 Donator

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    I tried a Webley Patriot once, that has to to the worst all round experience in airgunning, apart from its built like a tank, a slow, heavy tank.
     
  3. JohnHG

    JohnHG Engaging Member

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    I had a Norica West which I had difficulty in getting consistent accuracy
    which I found was due to hold sensitivity.
     
  4. That hurts

    That hurts Barely Active

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    The Haenel 302 I had back in the 70s was very sensitive and was the one rifle that really improved my technique in learning to shoot it accurately.
     
  5. robs5230

    robs5230 Very Active

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    All of them are hold sensitive until the shot cycle has been smoothed out and the trigger set up properly. I've never shot an off the peg springer that wasn't hold sensitive to some degree.
    Obviously brands with better designed trigger units have a better chance of being sorted.
     
  6. Patrick

    Patrick Donator

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    Not being an expert in these matters,far from it in fact, but it probably depends on the rifles firing/shot cycle characteristics,its lock time etc plus of course the shooters technique.You may find some shooters can shoot a particular rifle better or worse than other rifles or shooters shooting the same rifle due to their technique.Generally I would think that rifles that have a quick firing cycle/shorter lock time are less hold sensitive and therefore easier to shoot but as i said i'm no expert in these matters.
     
  7. critter

    critter Donator

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    BSA lightning Xl absolutely bloody awful ! Barn door springs to mind.
     
  8. rich79

    rich79 Donator

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    I've fired the old lightning in .22, it was really harsh, bloke never used it so not sure what state the insides were like, the 177 must be snappy as hell judging by the .22!
     
  9. gargloit

    gargloit Post Whore

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    Agreed absolutely. I has a .25 once. It hit like a train, but only when it hit. The worst air rifle I ever tried to shoot.
     
  10. zip ting

    zip ting Engaging Member

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    Webley Vulcan, BSA Lightning, too much muscle, no finesse
     
  11. cooper_dan

    cooper_dan Engaging Member

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    I have a general theory that it comes down to three factors:
    - mass of piston
    - mass and balance of stock
    - spring characteristics/preload

    In simplified terms, the piston gets accelerated very fast, then slows down very very fast and changes direction. Once the pellet is gone from the barrel, it also comes back and hits the front of the compression tube.
    I think this has a general effect of the piston 'hitting' the end of the compression area. Now if you imagine holding the rifle directly on the balance point, when that piston 'hits' the end, it applies a force, creating a Moment around the balance point (force x length), with the length being the distance between the balance point and the end of the compression tube.
    Holding the rifle on the balance point when you fire, will allow the Moment to tip the rifle and move the barrel. Moving your hand slightly away from the balance point will change the length of the Moment, and therefore change how the rifle tips.

    Mass of piston - This will affect the force portion of 'Force x length'. Higher mass = higher Moment = more barrel movement. However this will also affect how much spring load you need. So a very light piston might need a lot of spring, which actually ends up creating more force. It might be better to chase efficiency rather than piston mass
    Mass and balance of stock - This will affect how much effect the Moment has on the whole rifle. If you had a 250kg rifle, a 250g piston over maybe 100mm will have very little effect, i.e it's a mass damper. The weight distribution of the stock will affect the balance point, where the Moment would have most effect
    Spring - The spring characteristics will affect the dynamics of the piston. A piston free to fly back and forward freely will tip the rifle one way, then the other. A long soft spring with a lot of pre-load will hold the piston at the end of it's stroke for longer.

    So the worst springer will be inefficient, probably with a big bore and heavy piston. Have a long stroke. A light action and light stock, with a balance point somewhere just in front of the trigger guard.

    (p.s Don't take this is as gospel because it's just my thoughts)

    You can test hold sensitivity very easily in the HFT prone position. I guess benchrest position would work well too but I've never tried it. Hold the rifle as close as possible to the trigger guard and shoot a group at a range you are confident at being very accurate (20y for me). Then move your hand forward slightly. Mark the position and shoot a group. Repeat this until your forward hand is as far forward as you can comfortably hold. You should see the POI change slightly each time.

    For HFT shooters here's a good test. Aim at a level target from the prone position, and get someone to mark where your forward hand is placed on the stock. Now aim at a target high up in a tree. Try not to overthink it and use your normal position. Again get someone to mark the stock. Ideally the marks will be in the same place, but aiming up or down has the effect of bringing your forward hand closer to the trigger. If you struggle with elevated targets, this might be the issue.

    The fix for any springer is simple. Find the most comfortable hand position for you, mark the stock, and make sure your hand is always exactly on that mark. If it's held exactly the same every time, even the roughest, most inefficient springer will have no sensitivity and be as accurate as the barrel and pellets allow.
     
    Hampshire Tog and SteveO like this.
  12. Jiggy ward

    Jiggy ward HEY YOU GUYS

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    Await all hw99s fan boys to say Hw95k.177 ha ha

    My worst springer from hold sensitivity was a hw77k .177 with a tbt kit fitted it was crap fitted a sfs spring kit and it was fine however you was holding the rifle

    I think a little time spent on the inside cleaning and polishing and better fitted guide and top hat the rifle should not be sensitive at all


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  13. zip ting

    zip ting Engaging Member

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    I added lead to my stock to give me a hand placement that was repeatable
    (the firing cycle is fine) others 'might' want a barrel weight.
     
  14. cloverleaf

    cloverleaf Super Moderator Staff Member Mod/Admin

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    IME hold sensitivity is basically directly related to rifle displacement under recoil and surge, so will get worse with a number of factors - mainly:

    - High dynamic to static rifle mass ratio (i.e. heavy pistons in light guns)
    - Piston stroke length (longer the worse)

    This correlates with my own experience of some lightweight springers (HW95ks) and other guns with a disproportionately heavy piston and / or excessively long stroke (AA TX200 Mk3, later Weihrauch HW90).

    The 99 should be / is good for what it is; I'd expect an early (25mm) 77 to be similar / a bit better (longer stroke but a heavier gun relative to piston mass) and the later 26mm guns to probably be a bit worse as their pistons gained a fair bit of mass.
     
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  15. Frog

    Frog Engaging Member

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    Interesting thoughts! As a possible 'exception to prove the rule' my hatsan 55s had a 338g piston and relatively big bore and stroke. It recoiled a lot (more than any other gun I have owned) as new but was never really hold sensitive.
    I put most of the recoil down to a huge transfer port - 4.2mm
     
  16. Tmag

    Tmag Engaging Member

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    Luckily you cannot buy one new these days but the worst is the BSF S60 I own, it's a full power break barrel that is the size of a BSA Meteor, the trigger is either heavy and creepy or unsafe, the firing cycle would embarrass a gas-ram in terms of snappyness and EVERYTHING has to be spot on to get even average accuracy. Still enjoy the challenge of shooting it though!
     
  17. Claypole

    Claypole Busy Member

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    My HW45 is not hold sensitive at all when shooting tin cans, at any reasonable range. However, put a paper target up and try to get something resembling a group is a different matter.

    I actually have better results with it shooting offhand, and one handed.
     
    Rincewind666 likes this.
  18. rabbitwrecker

    rabbitwrecker The Tree Hunter...

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    Can't think of anything that was particularly bad, but pushed to naming one, it would have to be the AGS SPR-10c...

    ags_2444a.JPG
     
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  19. Rincewind666

    Rincewind666 Donator

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    Same for me . . . My HW45 was very hold sensitive ,great for cans but terrible on paper targets. As for a rifle it has to be the BSA lightning I had 5 years ago . . . Stripped it about 10 times but could never get it to shoot right. Swapped it for an smk 19 and I felt like I was the winner in that trade
     
  20. Regal Man

    Regal Man Post Whore

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    The worst gun ive ever shot was a Gamo. But it did group.
    Ive shot hw99s three in total, all completely different to load and shoot. Depends how they are set up.
     

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