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Why?

Discussion in 'Anything Airgun Related' started by darklord, Aug 3, 2014.

  1. darklord

    darklord Can’t beat a tx200 at 30m

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    Does everyone have too post that there guns are running hot or close to the limit. If that worried take into the local bobby and tell him. You can be prosecuted and internet stuff will be used as evidence.

    However unlikely it is to be tested unless you did something stupid.

    And don't forget the home office have access to everything posted anywhere and there are guys in the force on. here. And Iam on there side in these matters.

    Come on guys and gals if its hot sort it quietly. and don't give more evidence for more regulation. and PS i am in favour of licensing and losing the 12 limit for air weapons.
     
  2. gargloit

    gargloit Posting Addict

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    The Home Office also knows damned well that just about every modern air rifle, and quite a few older ones, are 'capable' of exceeding 12 ft/lb muzzle energy whether they do or not. And the Home Office therefore also knows that just about every modern air rifle, and quite a few older ones, are therefore Section One firearms. Read the legislation if you doubt me. At least by asking on this forum, people are showing best intentions.



    Mods: Apologies for mentioning this inconvenient truth, but truth it is. If it breaches forum rules it was unintentional. I did check the posting rules but couldn't find anything to contradict.
     
  3. Jfrwhite

    Jfrwhite Posting Addict

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    I tend to agree with gargloit here, at least it shows intention of rectifying the situation. I very much doubt that anyone would be convicted of having a section 1 firearm by saying their rifle is running hot on here. The rifle would have to be tested and proved to be running hot (if it was then anything on here may be taken into account but they would already have the tested rifle anyway and surely showing that you were trying to sort it would go in your favour or at least not against you?). If the rifle was tested and it came back as sub 12, then there is no real proof that it really was running hot to begin with. Fair enough if someone came on here saying "my none FAC rifle is putting out 20ftlb, AWESOME HA HA!" Then that would be a bit daft.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2014
  4. cloverleaf

    cloverleaf Super Moderator Staff Member Mod/Admin

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    Yeah, it's hardly like the forum is overflowing with knobheads proudly declaring from the rooftops that "my m 8's wound my gun up and it's now as paaaarful as a bullet gun" such idiocy would be far more likely to garner the attention of the polis; and rightly so IMO.

    I agree to a point about covering one's arse by keeping quiet; however as mentioned the posts are usually coloured with the intent to sort the gun out ASAP (as is required by law) and often in the context of asking for help (via PM) - the lack of which could leave the OP hanging precariously with an OTT gun and insufficient knowledge to sort it.

    While I make it my business never to underestimate the scale of the creeping, insidious surveillance state; I suspect big brother's eye on the internet is more actively interested in those discussing Jihad, the sourcing of a 9mm or tax dodging.. I'd like to think that our overlords have bigger fish to fry and that the polis aren't going to scramble the armed response squad to kick your back door off it's hinges after reading "just chrono'd the gun and it's doing 12.3ftlb; will tweak it down after dinner" or similar :rolleyes:

    Finally I'd like to think that to anyone in a position of authority, our forum should be viewed as a moderating force for good (how many times have you seen new members set straight on issues of safety, legality or responsibility) - it's hardly a breeding ground for the irresponsible, dangerous and stupid.

    For the record I'm against licensing - a plausible proposition if the government and polis could be trusted; however since they consistently prove themselves to be incompetent, inefficient and driven solely by their own agendas; IMO licensing would simply be another nail in the coffin of our sport with little or no tangible effect on the irresponsible or criminal use of airguns :down:
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2014
  5. Cymru-Dave

    Cymru-Dave Donator

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    Maybe there's an anti airgun website where the OP was supposed to post but somehow it ended up on here...
     
  6. Stevie Darling

    Stevie Darling Sexual tyrannosaurus

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    And think you will find that the abusers of air rifles that shoot at cats and swans and themselves, are not the owners of tuned r10's, hw100's, rapids, and other high end rifles.

    More like the old rust bucket that's been lurking in dads shed for years:)
     
  7. tinmanofkent

    tinmanofkent Tiger King

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    I really do hate the 12ftlb limit. It is just some arbitrary figure that doesn't seem to relate to anything. I could understand it if there were figures that showed people who were shot with a 13ftlb had a 90% mortality rate but 10% at 11ftlb. It's just nonsense. The next weapon up from an air rifle is a rim fire at around 100ftlb. An airgun can be tuned to this but they're so impractical you'd be mad not to just go to powder burning, so there is a natural break in gun class powers.

    Getting a consistently humane dispatch with 12ftlb is a real handicap. I wish instead of talking of the dire consequences of 13 ftlb people would start questioning the law and getting it changed. Deep down we all know it's utter nonsense.
     
  8. gargloit

    gargloit Posting Addict

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    The legislation that covers the 'limit' is as follows:

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1993/1490/article/2/made

    Firstly, note the date of the legislation. 1993. Then note the date of the legislation it amends. 1969. I would suggest that by 1993, the government's advisors knew full well the problems of this legislation, which lie not in the limit, but in the wording:

    Note especially that the legislation is not confined to air rifles that are exceeding 12 ft/lb, but rifles that are capable of exceeding 12 ft/lb, even if they are not presently doing so. A rifle that is 'capable' of exceeding 12 ft/lb is a section one firearm even if it is, at present, only providing 6 ft/lb muzzle energy.The question then becomes, why did the government, and their advisors, not change this legislation to something more meaningful? It's all well and good for 'notable figures of the airgun world' to suggest that for your air rifle to be tested by the police you will have to have been found doing something else that is wrong. apart from the fact that such a statement is meaningless, it ignores the fact that just about any modern air rifle is 'capable' of exceeding 12 ft/lb. So, why are the police not simply insisting that all air rifles are put on FAC or surrendered forthwith? The main answer is that it would cause chaos, and make hundreds, if not thousands, of people criminals. But here's the trick. While I don't think it is happening much at present, it means that a police officer finding anyone in possession of an air rifle can suggest that it is surrendered 'voluntarily' for destruction, or it will be sent for forensic examination, and if it can be persuaded to shoot a pellet at even 12.1 ft/lb you will be in court for possessing a S.1 firearm without a licence. The fear if this legislation being enacted also helps keep the airgun shooting fraternity quiet, for fear of what may happen if they don't.

    It is also notable that the proposed Scottish legislation on airguns is totally unnecessary. All that is required is for Scotland's parliament to insist that the police enforce the current legislation to the letter. But they haven't. Why not?

    I know for certain that the small association of lunatics, otherwise known as the Gun Control Network is fully aware of this situation, and there can be little doubt that they will have presented it to the Home Office and ACPO, but, as we know, the situation has not changed. Again, we really ought to ask why not.
     
  9. Stevie Darling

    Stevie Darling Sexual tyrannosaurus

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    What do you think the limit for air should be before a license was needed, I always thought from 12ftlb to 18 a sort of semi FAC, then a full FAC for 18+ and powder burners:)
     
  10. tinmanofkent

    tinmanofkent Tiger King

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    I don't know Stevie76, I know the true purpose of law is to achieve justice.

    How many people have been killed with airguns? What are the figures? Did airgun crime and harm to humans drop when the 12 ftlb limit was brought in? If not, scrap the law.
     
  11. darklord

    darklord Can’t beat a tx200 at 30m

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    Incorrect the limit is set in the 1968 firearms act . 69 adds the requirement of faC cert. and no Iam not an idiot I've posted over a thousand on here. I'm getting tired of reading my guns hot but it's ok now. That's an admission of owning an unlicensed and un recorded firearm. An rfd will not return a hot gun. If it's new then the gun should be returned to the manufacturer to sort. A lot of grey imports make their way here which where destined for export.

    Another topic pic which arises is can I fill my gun with another gas. This is clearly covered it's either compressed air or co2 asper1996 amendment. Filled with Anything else is section 1.
     
  12. dave goodall

    dave goodall Donator

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    Easily solved dont read posts about it then your not going to change anything by spitting your dummy out with little rant posts are you
     
  13. tinmanofkent

    tinmanofkent Tiger King

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    Darklord, how do you really feel about the 12ftlb limit? If it has saved nobody from harm wouldn't you like to see it gone? If a man goes to prison for only having an increase in pellet energy, that can deprive children of a father, a wife of a husband and a family of an income.

    We should be damn sure of what our goals are before we carelessly throw people in cages.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2014
  14. Fubbytucker

    Fubbytucker Busy Member

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    Just because you can spout the law chapter and verse doesn't mean everyone else can.
    If you don't like reading questions that you already know the answer to, then don't go into the threads. Don't belittle those who need to ask questions out of curiosity just because you feel they shouldn't need to ask the question in the first place.

    We have users here with vast amounts of knowledge, others with minimal and the whole spectrum between. If people didn't post things because there was a chance most people already knew the answer, the forum would be pretty stale.
     
  15. gargloit

    gargloit Posting Addict

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    OK, you're not an idiot. But you do have the above statement arse about face. The Firearms Act 1968 states a licence is needed for any air rifle defined as specially dangerous. It is the subordinate legislation that defines what is specially dangerous, namely the The Firearms (Dangerous Air Weapons) Rules 1969, at 12 ft/lb. And remember 'capable'? it matters not whether your rifle is 'running hot' or not, it's whether it is 'capable' of running hot.

    For the sake of clarity, then hot or not, if you admit you are in possession of, for example, and by no means exclusive, a PCP air rifle with a tuning screw available without dismantling the air rifle, and that screw can adjust the power output to 12.1 ft/lb, then notwithstanding the rifle is currently running at 8 ft/lb, you are admitting that you possess an unlicensed and unrecorded Section 1 firearm.

    Your reference to the 1996 amendment is one I'm having difficulty in tracking down, and I'd be obliged if you could post a link. I can only find such acts under Australian, and Sri Lankan, legislation for some reason.

    Edit:
    On re-reading your post, you seem to be saying that making a thousand posts is somehow proof that you are not an idiot. Does that define someone who has made only a couple of posts as an idiot? :confused:
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2014
  16. Scott srs

    Scott srs Well-Known Member

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    I think someone's had a bad day at work and wanted a moan ;)
     
  17. Kyska

    Kyska Honorary Member

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    Thats a really balanced analogy, but I guess if the law is there, whether it's 12ft/lb or 20, that's the limit.

    So, we end up in the same repeating loop of film, if we scrap the power limit, do we regulate it, ie licence them? Bearing in mind fac air is more than capable of generating more than a .22 lr, it would be ironic to keep the licence needed for rimfires under the capable ME of S1 air
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2014
  18. martin22

    martin22 Donator

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    at the minute the law is 12ft/ib as it has been for many years,just a thought but how about just enjoying shooting them as we have for generations?
    one of the things so appealing to me about shooting is just getting out the 4 walls and into nature for a while and switching off,we have health and safety rammed down our throats daily through work ect,in todays big brother society we are governed in everything we do and beat with the rule/law book on everything,common sense seems to be something we are not allowed anymore,theres plenty of info available on the web so no one has any excuse to be on the wrong side of the law
    just enjoy what we have (makes you wonder how people managed before chrono's were widely available) just enjoy getting out into nature,and just make sure we dont lose the common sense thats so important to the sport (and that does include the common sense to make yourself familiar with the law) but dont lose focus of why we shoot
    View attachment 100771
    then again i only have 500 odd posts so what do i know,the last 20 or so years shooting have learnt me nothing but....
    i was once told (and these words have stuck in my head for years) "you can only **** with the p***k youve got so make the most of it"
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2014
  19. tinmanofkent

    tinmanofkent Tiger King

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    I have had a look online for airgun deaths. Somewhere around 30 are reported in the last 25 years and not much before that. Some were outright deaths by airguns while others combined with stabbings and beatings to cause death. Some were suicides. The figures seemed to show that children are more easily killed by airguns than adults (not surprising).

    We should have enough data now to determine how effective licensing has been at saving humans from harm. If it hasn't worked in the past then forget it. Our efforts are better spent doing something else.

    I know the law is what it is but I think it's healthy for us to question it rather than switch off our brains and put up with any old legislation. Remember there were laws not that long ago that sent black people to the back of the bus and gay people to jail or, if they preferred, chemical castration. I know that's off topic a bit but the point is we should kick and scream at naff laws instead of squabbling amongst ourselves over an irrelevant limit of 12ftlb.
     
  20. sej016

    sej016 Donator

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    The question I would ask is what factual technical information was considered that resulted in (to me) a fairly arbitrary figure of 12ft/lbs being defined as the limit for "specially dangerous".

    So what? - a pellet so fired will not enter human subcutaneous tissue at 11.9ft/lbs, but will at 12 ft/lbs ?

    How was the limit determined ?
     

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