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What are the rules

Discussion in 'Firearms Certificate (FAC) Guns' started by mbison, Jul 31, 2014.

  1. mbison

    mbison Busy Member

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    On other people (a shooting partner, for example) using your FAC gun whilst you're out together? You know, a few shots at a target or a bunny or two? I've been getting mixed messages from a few friends and thought some of the pros (you know who you are) could help me out! Cheers lads
     
  2. SteveO

    SteveO Top Poster

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    I'm no expert but was under the impression you can use a single gun between you while supervised by the FAC holder.
     
  3. r10hunter

    r10hunter Honorary Member

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    Rifle, yes that's fine to lend your rifle to someone as long as you have permission to do so from the farmer (person that gave you permission) and the person trying out your gun is not a person who is prohibited from using firearms (or is a child of under 17)
    The person using your rifle must be in your view and able to hear you.

    An occupier or an occupiers servant can loan a rifle provided it's held on their fac.
    *For example the farmer owns the land and so is the occupier, you shoot vermin for him and so are his servant, you can loan your fac rifle to someone.






    Shotgun, normally not allowed, its very much more complicated to lend a shotgun than a rifle.
    If you want to loan a shotgun you must be an occupier of the land and hold the shotgun you are lending on your sgc.
    There are many definitions of occupier and it's a very grey area.
    An occupiers servant can't loan a shotgun.
    Cheers Andy
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2014
  4. jonesy185

    jonesy185 Busy Member

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    Anyone can, under you're supervision . Just be more careful, sensible and aware....

    When I first started shooting that's what I did , under supervision of a family member ect then when I wanted to apply for a firearm or a certain caliber I had a reference for experience of specific caliber ect .

    Jonesy
     
  5. spike0001

    spike0001 Well-Known Member

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    Hi all

    I have just had the FEO round for my FAC and Shotgun certs. He advised that a non SGC holder/mate could loan or use a shotgun whilst with you and use it whilst in your company i.e. along side you, shooting together etc.
    However an FAC is a totally different thing. Unless they have an FAC themselves then they should not be handling or using your firearms at all. They would be classified as unauthorised persons.
    I could be wrong and misunderstood what he said, but as the FAC holder you will have a lot to lose if it all goes pear shaped.
    Best thing I would advise is to give your FEO a call, they are really helpful people and give you the correct info
    Hope that helps
    ATB
     
  6. r10hunter

    r10hunter Honorary Member

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    It's the other way round as my post above the shotgun is the hard one to loan.
    Cheers Andy
     
  7. gargloit

    gargloit Posting Addict

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    Given the potential consequences of getting it wrong, and because there is an obvious difference of opinion, could someone who actually knows post the relevant law on the subject rather than an uncorroborated opinion? Please?
     
  8. r10hunter

    r10hunter Honorary Member

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    I just did :)
     
  9. mattyts

    mattyts Donator

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    Is there not a difference between loan and lend?

    Someone could use/lend a shotgun if they are next to you but to loan a shotgun,they need it on their ticket?
     
  10. spike0001

    spike0001 Well-Known Member

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    Hmmm, not sure you are correct R10hunter.
    If you think of the rules covering shotgun ammunition - I can buy it as an SGC holder and then give it to the wife to take home and put in a cupboard. No issues in the eyes of the law.
    However,
    If I were to buy some .22RF or .17 HMR ammo and then give it to the wife to take home then we are both breaking the law.
    This logic applies to the Shotguns and Rifles too. I can lend a shotgun to a mate shooting with me but NOT a section 1 firearm.
    Its the law.
    And I agree with Gargloit, could someone who actually knows the letter of the law please comment before someone gets nicked and someone else loses their FAC .
    Thanks
     
  11. r10hunter

    r10hunter Honorary Member

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    If you have sgc you can borrow another sgc holders gun for 72 hours.

    If you are a non sgc holder you can in most situations not use a sgc holders gun even if they are stood next to you.
    The sgc holder must also be the occupier of the land to lend you a gun. ( unless at a clay club)

    The rules are not so strict for fac there is no need to prove you are the occupier of the land.
    Cheers Andy
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2014
  12. r10hunter

    r10hunter Honorary Member

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    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    The home office know the law!

    As I said above an occupier and his servant may supervise a non fac holder with a rifle. So the farmer and the vermin shooter can supervise a non fac holder with a rifle that is held on their ticket. As long as they are in sight and ear shot.

    But with a shotgun only the occupier can supervise so only the farmer may supervise a non sgc holder as long as they are in sight and ear shot.
    Clay clubs are different as they will have section 11 exemption.


    The definition of occupier is a very grey area! Where does permission end and "any right" to shoot start etc.
    Cheers Andy
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2014
  13. r10hunter

    r10hunter Honorary Member

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    Also having an fac gives you no extra rights in respect of a rifle not held on your fac. (you can't borrow someone's .22 lr without them with you because you have .22lr on your certificate)
    You must still be in sight and ear shot of the person that holds the gun on their certificate and the person loaning you the gun must be the occupier or the occupiers servant of the land you are on.
    Cheers Andy
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2014
  14. Kyska

    Kyska Honorary Member

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    Listen to Andy.

    This is a common question, the law is 'grey' in some parts, there hasn't been a test case, but the spirit of the law is obvious.

    You can lend a shotgun, if you're the occupier, ie a tenant or landowner OR have a S11 exemption.

    S1 firearm is less prescribed.

    Be careful, for without causing offence, it is you who is incorrect, and at risk of losing a cert.

    For sensibilities sake, and the reputation of this forum, if you have any uncertainties, your FEO is the first port of call, similar to if you think you have the clap or pox, see your Dr, not ask online.
     
  15. Kyska

    Kyska Honorary Member

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    Andy, re the question about rights vs permission, I don't see an argument.

    Your right to shoot is non retractable, permission is. Or is that too simplistic?
     
  16. r10hunter

    r10hunter Honorary Member

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    Yes that's what acpo are saying.

    But the problem is where it stops and starts.
    Syndicate game shooters that have paid their money for the year? Right or permission?
    Someone that has paid £1000 for a days game shooting? Right or permission?

    Someone that has a letter from the landowner saying they have a right to shoot because they have paid £1 for the shooting rights etc.? right or permission?

    Someone employed to shoot. Right or permission ?

    A tenant farmer could still be evicted by a landowner.
    All very grey!

    Acpo said at least a year ago they wanted clarification from the home office I believe they have still not revived it.

    Cheers Andy
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2014
  17. Kyska

    Kyska Honorary Member

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    Imo all have permission, other than the tenant who until is evicted has a right to control vermin. Anyone paying can be asked to leave the land, as they don't own it, the law protects the owner as by being asked to leave, regardless of fiscal issues, if you don't have permission to be on land with a gun.....
     
  18. r10hunter

    r10hunter Honorary Member

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    You could well be correct the jury is still out:)

    But remember many landowners rent shooting rights and the farming separately.
    " shooting rights" not shooting permissions.

    And not all landowners are individuals many are banks and pension funds.
    If you have rented the game shooting you have the "right to take game" and "shoot" If someone puts down a few thousand game birds without a watertight contract preventing them being asked to leave the land they are an idiot.

    The recommended definition in the wca is "the right to take game" "hunt" "shoot" not kill vermin so makes it even more complicated.

    For clarity in this thread.
    We both agree that the best advice is don't allow any non sgc holder to shoot your shotgun even under your supervision unless you are the farmer or landowner don't we.

    But letting someone use your fac rifle under your supervision is fine as long as you have permission to shoot on the land.

    Cheers Andy
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2014
  19. gargloit

    gargloit Posting Addict

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    The original question, which suggests your mate can have a few bangs with your rifle.

    Not exactly. Without quoting the relevant law, you offered an opinion. You later quoted the legislation.

    One thing is missing. You first have to define the term 'servant'. Most people shooting over land, I suspect the vast majority on this forum, are shooting on sufferance. I believe, and will now have to go and check, the legal meaning of 'servant'.
     
  20. r10hunter

    r10hunter Honorary Member

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    Gargloit said:
    One thing is missing. You first have to define the term 'servant'. Most people shooting over land, I suspect the vast majority on this forum, are shooting on sufferance. I believe, and will now have to go and check, the legal meaning of 'servant'.[/QUOTE]

    Someone who has permission to shoot from the occupier rather than the right to shoot on the land.
    Cheers Andy
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2014

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