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Trigger happy cops.

Discussion in 'Get it off your chest' started by Tron, Jun 23, 2017.

  1. gargloit

    gargloit Posting Addict

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    At the beginning of the stop the officer was calm and professional. The driver seems to produce some sort of documentation when asked, usually driving licence and insurance. Then he tells the officer "I do have a gun." and seems to start reaching to a pocket. This is supported by 1) the officer telling him not to produce the gun, 2)the girlfriend saying after the shooting that he was trying to get out his ID and wallet, and 3) her repeating that "He let the officer know he had a firearm and was reaching for his wallet." At this point the officer, understandably IMO starts getting nervous. The warning is given before the officer starts shooting. Clearly the driver hasn't stopped reaching to his pocket.

    This is in the USA . A man there saying this probably does have a gun. Then he reaches towards a pocket about his person and is told to stop by the officer. He has already passed over his documents so what is he reaching for? He doesn't stop. He has a gun. The officer has only seconds to decide, if that, and this faced by someone who not only isn't complying with the officer's order, but is acting in a way that any rational person would know is putting their life in danger.

    The driver, if he had a concealed carry permit, will have undergone training by the police. While standards do differ for this course across the USA it is quite certain that one of the things they will be taught, and taught loud, is how to behave when stopped by the police. Generally, the idea is to inform the officer ASAP that you are carrying. You don't do this while reaching for anything, you stay still and keep your hands well in view. (He should probably have done this before handing over his documents, as soon as he was spoken to in fact) Usually, the driver should then ask the officer how he wants to handle it from then on. All of this is quite reasonable and is designed to keep everyone concerned alive.

    What brains would it take for the driver to have done things differently? To keep his hands on the wheel and simply say to the officer "I have a permit in my right hand pocket, do you want me to show it to you? Just one of many sensible options, and the officer can decide how to best handle things, possibly to direct his partner to take a new cover, with his firearm to hand. But no. Following a warning by the officer not to show the firearm to him, he keeps moving. In perhaps two seconds the driver could be emptying a pistol into the officer. Two seconds. Count them off now.

    The driver died either because he was too dumb or too stoned to work out what he was doing.

    As I have said before, do what the nice policeman who is pointing a gun at you says.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2017
  2. Mike.lewis

    Mike.lewis Donator

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    You can't say things like that, you may upset people :)
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2017
  3. sidney

    sidney Keyboard Hero

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    At which point of the video did you conclude the driver was stoned? He did seem to be "out of it" at one point, but that was after being shot, which even the harshest critic would deem understandable.
     
  4. SteveO

    SteveO Top Poster

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    Yes mate, I have many black members (cousins and second cousins) in my family too of North American origin, I do fear for them.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2017
  5. RagnarHairybreeks

    RagnarHairybreeks Keyboard Hero

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    Smallholder fella, I claim solidarity. I married a ginger for crying out loud! <very tongue-in-cheek>

    Seriously though, whether or not it is being manipulated for political reasons (which it is, by both sides) there is something very wrong in the USA at the moment with regards to police shootings.

    This one is ridiculous (but remember that only the ones caught on camera by a third party go viral - what percentage do you think that equates to?) WARNING a man dies on camera.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/ne...rleston-cop-fatally-shoots-man-runs-away.html

    It was an execution.

    If I was black and American I would be on the streets.

    It's not a one-sided issue. Black America needs to stop fetishizing pimp-hoe-got-ma-nine-rap culture but white America needs to stop fetishizing the military and the police as all American cain't-do-no-wrong heroes.

    Mostly you have to work out how to reset the country such that a gun outside of a range or a permission should be something that kicks off a knee-jerk call the cops reaction.

    Sure, I'd like to bang off rounds from a .50 cal pistol for the sh*ts and the giggles, but I'd rather live in our UK paradigm and sacrifice that pleasure for precision shooting that is lethal to not much bigger than a crow.
     
  6. sidney

    sidney Keyboard Hero

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    The need to carry arms died with the old west but the Americans havent grown out of their John Wayne image of themselves. Their gun laws should have been updated in the 1920's like ours were.
     
  7. mike-carter

    mike-carter Major Poster

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    I'm sorry, it just goes to show that the extent of police training in the U.S. is severely lacking. This would not have happened in the U.K although I do admit to one or two police shootings over here are questionable. The copper there is I believe not stressed that was panic in his voice. It was also overkill, how many times is it necessary to shoot someone and I might add with a 4 year old child in the back of the car. That in itself is appalling. That police officer should be thrown out of the force and prosecuted.
     
  8. gargloit

    gargloit Posting Addict

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    Moi? :confused:
     
  9. gargloit

    gargloit Posting Addict

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    There were reports of him smoking a splif. However, if he wasn't then the too dumb option is the way to go.
     
  10. gargloit

    gargloit Posting Addict

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    I've spent time with US police and with one or two exceptions I would say they are far better than the UK police when it comes to such confrontations. Having said that, the UK police do not have to routinely face the possibility of facing an armed criminal.

    http://time.com/4619689/police-officers-killed-2016/

    The U.S. saw 135 police officers die in the line of duty in 2016, which is the highest number of fatalities on the job in five years, according to a new analysis.Nearly half of those who were killed while working this year were fatally shot, including 21 police officers who died in different ambush-style attacks carried out across the country, the National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund said Thursday.

    There's precious little difference between stress and panic. Imagine the stress when what started out as a routine traffic stop turns into a potential death threat. Add to that the reaction of disbelief when someone you are pointing a gun at refuses to comply with an entirely rational command which will force you into shooting them, something you don't want to do. You might recall that the officer seemed somewhat upset immediately after the shooting, which rather goes against black man murdering psycho image painted by some.

    With regards to the number of shots fired, unlike in the UK, the US police have by and large recognised that unlike on the movies, people shot are not instantly incapacitated by a single bullet every time. Many departments have a policy that if it is deemed necessary to shoot at all then you keep shooting until activity by the target ceases. A dying target can still shoot, especially if under the influence of PCP, or even the body's own defence mechanism. Watch, or read up on, "The FBI murders" to see how much punishment a human can take while still killing people.

    The 4 year old in the back of the car is unfortunate, but if a policy of not engaging with anyone who had a child in their company was adopted then every criminal in the land would be carting one around with them. It is already fairly common practice in the US for drug runners to 'rent' a woman with a child as cover in the hope of looking like a normal family outing. You might consider it better to say that a man who has a young child in a car with him who acts in a stupid fashion when instructed not to by an armed police officer bears a high degree of responsibility for what follows. If the driver had acted sensibly, as he was undoubtedly trained to do, he would still be alive today.

    The officer faced a murder trial and was acquitted on a unanimous verdict by a jury which included two 'persons of colour' who heard all of the facts of the case, observed the officers giving evidence, and acquitted him. The officer has left employment with that police force.
     
  11. Patrick

    Patrick Donator

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    Or better still "keep your hands where i can see them"
     
  12. gargloit

    gargloit Posting Addict

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    That would certainly have been better. But let me ask. A police officer is pointing a gun at you. He is clearly at least anxious. If anything he said began with the word "Don't", what would you do? Me, on hearing that word and seeing the gun I'd be like a statue, not even caring that I'd cacked my pants.

    I find it a terrible sadness that he was shot. I find it far worse that a four year old child will grow up believing, having been told it was so, that he was shot for no other reason than he was black, which I consider to be a foul lie.
     
  13. Patrick

    Patrick Donator

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    Well if a police officer is pointing a gun at you the best and safest thing you can do is comply with any instructions he gives you especially if he/she appears to be tense or a bit on edge.But i'm afraid these sort of incidents will continue in a society that's awash with firearms, where firearms are as common as mobile phones.No police officer in that sort of society where knowing that should he need to apprehend/stop someone there's a good chance of having a gun pulled on him would ever consider going out on patrol unarmed but this may lead to some officers who are not best suited to handling/using a firearm carrying them.In a society where shootings and firearm offences are an everyday occurrence and where you can buy something like an AR15 with the necessary ammo along with your weekly grocery shop at Walmart with few questions asked then the police have little alternative but to be armed at all times and treat every incident as a potential threat to them.Until America finally,if it ever will that is,realises that if it wants a safer society for all concerned then it's going to have to bring in stricter firearm controls then things won't change and they'll just have to live with it.
     
  14. gargloit

    gargloit Posting Addict

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    In the USA, as a general rule, the firearms crimes are largely confined to about half a dozen cities, all of which have the strictest gun laws in the USA. By coincidence, these are run by Democrats. If they are excluded from the figures, the murder rate for the rest of the country is comparable with that of the UK. I'd also mention that a large percentage, possibly, from memory, the majority of firearms deaths are suicides.

    That aside, I have visited the USA three times for a total of seven weeks, researching the use of force by police officers. I have visited forces in New York, Delaware, Tennessee, Kansas City MO, Wichita, Georgia, Florida, and some others I've forgot. There are between 30 and 40 thousand separate police forces in the USA so I couldn't manage them all(!). The smallest force I visited had just 7 full time officers.

    In just about every force I found the officers took the matter very seriously. One difference between us and them is that when an officer is alleged to have done wrong, in the UK the force is sued and that's it. The officer may face disciplinary proceedings, or even criminal proceedings, but he will never, AFAIK, face any civil liability in reality. In the USA both the officer and the force will face civil action, and the force will generally look to prove that the officer acted outside the policy of the force. If they are successful, then, unlike the UK, the officer will face the full penalty of a civil court. Worth remembering when discussing such incidents.

    Almost without exception, the officers I patrolled with were well up on the use of force and tactics. They realised, far more than British police officers, that their lives were at risk. To take one British example, Sharon Beshenivsky, murdered by an armed robber because she ran into premises that had activated a bandit alarm without first having a phone call to get a member of staff out to give the all clear, or not. While the robber was the murderer, IMO, her Chief Constable should have been stood in the dock besides him. I cannot believe that such an incident could ever have happened in the USA. To balance the books, I did see some very questionable behaviour. They're not perfect, but the vast majority I saw were pretty damned good. Even some of the out and out rednecks (a term I hate but it has it's uses) were well behaved. It is worth remembering also that a police officer there isn't going to want an idiot with a gun as a partner. Any fool can tell that is not a good thing.

    It's also worth remembering that it is becoming an article of faith among black people in the USA that the police will shoot them at every opportunity, they seem to learn it at their mothers knee. I would ask then why their mother doesn't also teach them to do what a policeman pointing a gun at them says they should do. You can always argue it in court afterwards, but only if you are alive.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2017
  15. RagnarHairybreeks

    RagnarHairybreeks Keyboard Hero

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    Just to pull you up on a couple of somethings Gargloit.

    To point out that the cities with the worst gun crime in the USA are controlled by Democrats is an absolute non-argument and clearly outlines your political agenda. It is like saying that the five cities with the fattest population have black haired Mayors.

    And to say that the States with the strictest gun control laws have the worst problems with gun crime is an equally fatuous correlation. If you are implying a cause and effect connection here I'm dying to hear what it might be.
     
  16. Prosport.22

    Prosport.22 Posting Addict

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    IMHO the answer to whom responsibility should lay is somewhere in the seven bullets that were used to back up an ostensibly lawful request.....
     
  17. Patrick

    Patrick Donator

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    Well from the beginning and by the end of January this year there were about 30 shootings in America whether most of these were confined to a few major cities i don't know but an average of one a day wherever they happen isn't exactly encouraging and something to be proud of.This,the UK,is one of the safest countries in the world to live in and though not totally gun crime free gun crime is very low,it also has some of the strictest gun controls,coincidence? Anyone who suggests that if this country had the same gun controls,or to be more precise the same lack of them,as America and possibly one or two other countries that gun crime or gun related incidents wouldn't increase is living in a fantasy world.No country however strict its gun laws are even if it had a total ban on gun ownership by the public would be gun crime free as some criminal will manage to get hold of one somehow illegally.The total ban on handguns was probably a knee jerk reaction to the Dunblane tragedy and unnecessary but the fact is America(little gun control) has had more mass shootings in the last couple of years than this country(strict gun control) has had in over the last 30 years.Some may consider our gun laws too restrictive and in one or two areas that may be so but if if you can meet the basic requirements;
    1. You're of good character,sound mind and have no criminal convictions
    2. You have a good reason for owning one and somewhere suitable to use it e.g club or suitable land.
    3. You can satisfy the necessary security requirements.
    you should have no problems obtaining a certificate
    I see little wrong with that.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2017
  18. mojocvh

    mojocvh Donator

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    Better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6

    Sent from my C6903 using Tapatalk
     
  19. Meteor62

    Meteor62 Major Poster

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    White people get killed by police too but there's no news in that.


    .
     
  20. gargloit

    gargloit Posting Addict

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    One of the post persistent problems in discussing firearms law and restrictions on the ownership of firearms is that anyone protesting against any relaxation of such laws immediately seems to take the position that any such relaxation will mean giving away firearms licences with fish and chips and benefits cheques. At best they assume that 'it will be like America'. There is a middle road that can be followed. Also, many seem to have not the slightest idea what the situation is in America. For the record, I dislike the way things are with respect to firearms ownership in America, nearly as much as I dislike the way things are with respect to firearms over here.

    It might be worth remembering that the first firearms licencing laws were introduced to try and counter the possibilities of soldier returning from the First War objecting to the government of the time and starting up another Bolshevik revolution.

    It is a demonstrable fact that the government and the police do not want the public to be able to defend themselves. That might be borne in mind also.
     

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