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The last one - Steyr LG110 Hunting

Discussion in 'Gun Gallery' started by cloverleaf, Feb 4, 2018.

  1. cloverleaf

    cloverleaf Super Moderator Staff Member Mod/Admin

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    The reg was removed (four bolts) and tested; giving an output pressure of around 83-84bar at an input pressure of 150bar.

    full.jpg

    full.jpg


    Next the exhaust valve cover plate was removed (another four bolts), allowing the exhaust valve spring to be removed and exposing the exhaust valve itself. As with the striker spring, the exhaust valve spring is small and relatively high rate. It runs a reasonable amount of pre-load, of which I'm somewhat dubious. The end was a bit deformed on this example..

    full.jpg


    The exhaust valve in its housing. The O-ring is just a standard shape offering that conforms to the less than O-shaped housing.

    full.jpg


    The exhaust valve is a little unusual and another example of excellent, thoughtful design. In keeping with the rest of the gun it's extemely small and lightweight, coming in at a shade over a gram. By comparison a standard 400 series valve (which is admittedly a bit of a porker) is around 7g.

    full.jpg


    The valve is a three-part design consisting of a steel stem and ally head which is swaged over to retain a captive O-ring, which serves as the seat material. The only potential issue I can see with this setup is the possible requirement for additional striker energy to account for any elasticity in the seat during valve opening, however the O-ring is well-supported and of thin section, so I'd expect this to be minimal. In this respect it may actually be a lot better than more traditional valves with single-piece synthetic heads.

    The design will never suffer from extrusion or problematic deformation, so should give reliable, consistant performance. This is the first time I've handled one of these valves and from pics I've always thought they were larger than they actually are - for scale the major diameter of the head is 8mm so they're pretty small. Again, a very competent piece of design IMO :)

    full.jpg


    The housing with the valve removed, showing the valve throat and relatively large plenum on the output side of the reg. Generally speaking a large plenum aids efficiency. The valve system as a whole is very well thought out, with approximately the same flow area from the valve throat through the rest of the porting. The valve and porting are as large as they need to be but no more, reducing closed force on the valve and making it easier to open; with associated benefits for the striker assy.

    full.jpg


    The reg was stripped and a 0.2mm shim added, upping its output pressure to around 120bar..

    full.jpg


    ..this allowed the gun to be tested off-reg to to ascertain a velocity curve (and ideal operating pressure). The gun was slung back together with the new port, tested and adjusted. Unfortunately, as careful as I was I did manage to take off a touch of the anodising on the edge of the port hole by screwing it in without the chassis and action block perfectly aligned. It was barely visible (and now not at all thanks to a little touching up) but extremely irritating all the same.

    full.jpg


    The striker spring pre-load adjustor required backing off around two turns to give around 11.25ftlb with AA Express at an ideal operating pressure of around 85bar. This adjustment reduced striker spring preload by around 45% from around 4.6 to 2.6mm; in turn reducing necessary striker energy from around 0.22J to 0.15J - a fall of over 30%.

    Once ideal operating pressure had been ascertained the reg was removed and the additional shim taken out. The reg's blanking plug was removed and its adjustor wound out very slightly by around one screwdriver-slot-width to increase the output slightly to a shade over 85 bar. Thankfully I got this right first time, although it was a very small adjustment so hardly a lot of room to go wrong.

    full.jpg


    Finally the gun was reassembled and tested. So you may ask, what benefits have this work brought?

    The two big ones are improved air efficiency and reduced sensitivity to pellet mass.

    As received the rifle gave me 80 shots from 200bar down to around 90bar. This works out at a pressure drop of around 1.38 bar per shot, for around 85 shots per charge. I've only put 40 shots through the gun so far but the on-board gauge is indicating a pressure drop from 200bar of around 30-35bar; suggesting air usage of between 0.75 and 0.88 bar per shot. This would translate into around 130 - 155 shots per charge; an improvement of between 50 and 80% over the gun in its "as received" state.

    Of course more will be known once the gun has had more shots put through it, allowing figures to be calculated more accurately over a wider operating pressure range. I was hoping that this improved efficiency would make the gun quieter, but it's still a noisey sod!


    The other big improvement is in pellet mass sensitivity. We all "know" that PCPs are typically more efficient / give higher muzzle energies with heavier pellets. This is directly related to transfer port diameter; with the flow restriction of small ports failing to provide the necessary flow rate to give good efficiency with lighter pellets that require driving at a higher-velocity. Excessively low reg pressures (relative to the port size) don't help either, which was certainly the case before the gun was set up.

    The rifle was chrono'd with five JSB pellets of varying mass (7.3, 7.9, 8.4, 10.3 and 13.5gn), both when new and after the setup. As received the gun gave the highest muzzle energy with the 10.34gn Exact Heavies; the lightest pellet (7.33gn Exact RS) giving nearly 9.5% less energy. Conversely with the new port and the gun operating as it should muzzle energy peaked with the 7.87gn Exact Express, the heaviest pellet (13.45gn Exact Monster) giving the lowest energy at a shade under 5% less than the Express.

    The headline figure IMO is that over the four most usable weights (7.3-10.3gn) the gun initially gave nearly 9.5% spread in energy from the heaviest to the lightest, while after being sorted out, extreme spread over these four was less than 1% :cool:

    The stark difference between these two states of tune can be seen in the graphs below:

    full.jpg

    full.jpg


    This is obviously great as it likes the Express and means I can set the energy a bit higher without having to make allowances for it going over the limit with any others :)

    In addition to these very valuable improvements, the reduced striker spring pre-load makes cocking easier and reduces air wastage when de-cocking, although there will be a slight lock time penalty. The reduced pre-load should also improve efficiency a little too.

    So, a good job done; nothing magical - just setting the gun up as it was intended to be before it was strangled to appease the nanny state. There are still jobs to do but IMO this has got the back of it broken now and everything else is just peripheral tweaks.

    Anyway, time for bed - I'll update as and when ;)
     
    bucketboy, teddy_79, Jeffsy and 9 others like this.
  2. raven hunter

    raven hunter Posting Addict

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    very nice good wright up so there is two right good bell ends then ,
    the steyr bangers ( noisy banger )look four wards to seeing you later in the year
     
    cloverleaf likes this.
  3. katluke

    katluke Donator

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    As usual Mike,a very informative thread with very good photos. :cool:
     
    teddy_79 and cloverleaf like this.
  4. Rob-ontarget

    Rob-ontarget Donator

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    Way too technical for a dunce like me but a good read and great pics as usual:up::claping:
     
    cloverleaf likes this.
  5. bucketboy

    bucketboy Keyboard Hero

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    Excellent!!!

    Bb
     
    cloverleaf likes this.
  6. audi swift

    audi swift Man up & pull the bloody trigger.... HFT 101.

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    Glad you liking it, & nice write up along with some good photos. :)
     
    cloverleaf likes this.
  7. PumpnGun

    PumpnGun Donator

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    Just seen the photos, cracking bit of kit :cool:

    Ray
     
    cloverleaf likes this.
  8. Farty

    Farty Totty GURU

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    Simply, WOW, brilliant....
     
    cloverleaf likes this.
  9. cloverleaf

    cloverleaf Super Moderator Staff Member Mod/Admin

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    Thanks chaps :)

    With the techie side pretty sorted (at least for now), attention turned to other areas..

    As previously mentioned I don't like the cheek piece very much. The woodwork itself is minimal and angular while the adjustment mech is somewhat crude, offers a limited range of adjustment and is a bit of a pain in the arse to manipulate.

    Simply chucking the whole lot onto a ball joint at the top of the height-adjuster post (a' la Air Arms) would have avoided most of these problems for little cost or complexity penalty, however for whatever reason Steyr chose a different route...

    [​IMG]


    The cheekpiece assy was removed by backing out the grub screw for the height adjustable pillar on the RHS of the butt. While installation is tidy and well executed, IMO this system is a bit of a lash-up due to the use of a flat-point grub screw to clamp the pillar in place. The slot in the pillar into which the grub screw tightens already has a few marks - some through the finish where the screw has apparently been tightened on the p**s during assembly :(

    The insert in the stock for the pillar is interesting; its OD being eccentric to the hole for the pillar itself. This is presumably to minimise the amount of room taken up by the setup (and avoid excessively weakening the stock) while still leaving space for the locking grub screw.

    [​IMG]


    The bore for the pillar is offset to the LHS of the rifle by 2mm, which if a little odd isn't really an issue...

    [​IMG]


    The pillar assembly viewed from the LHS. Slackening off the two socket cap bolts allows the cheek-piece to roll about their axis; however the range of movement is severely limited by interference between the underside of the cheek-piece itself and the top of the pillar, thanks to the minimal clearance between the two (around 0.9mm).

    Fap knows why the top of the post wasn't relieved / radiussed / chamfered or a clearance hole drilled in the cheek-piece to allow more movement... IMO this is very poor.

    [​IMG]


    The assembly viewed from the RHS, showing the two bolts that retain the cheek-piece to the mounting plate beneath.

    [​IMG]


    The bolts run through slots in the mounting plate which allow 5mm of adjustment across the rifle, as well as giving sufficient clearance to allow the cheek-piece to be rotated to an extent in the horizontal plane. This is a very welcome feature, although compared to a ball joint a bit simplistic and limited.

    [​IMG]


    The mounting plate bolts pass into threaded inserts in the cheek-piece, which are very tidily fitted. Apparently my stock was no.73 :)

    [​IMG]


    The anodised ally mounting plate in isolation. Unfortunately there are no washers beneath any of the bolts, meaning the plate is marked in places. This is pretty damned poor IMO - especially around the slots where there's less bearing surface under the heads of the bolts and they're likely to be fitted in many different places.

    [​IMG]


    The pillar and mounting plate assemblies stood upside down in isolation, showing the maximum angular adjustment available between the two parts. Further displacement of the pillar is prevented by interference with the surface upon which the mounting plate is stood:

    [​IMG]


    I wanted more angular displacement since the minimal amount available served to both locate my face on an uncomfortable edge of the cheek-piece as well as pushing my head away from the centre-line of the gun and harming eye-alignment with the scope. The easiest way to achieve this was evidently to space the mounting plate away from the cheek-piece.

    Sadly there was scant scrap material around so I ended up crafting a laminar composite spacer (old targets hacked up with my pocket knife :p) as this was sufficient to test the theory. The card is about 0.35mm thick, so three layers gives around 1mm total thickness.

    [​IMG]


    A composite of the post assemblies - (L-R): post in upright position, maximum standard displacement, maximum displacement with 1mm spacer fitted. I've not measured the angle but I'm confident that it's at least double what it was :)

    [​IMG]


    Everything fitted to the gun and the cheek-piece set up at somewhere near optimum, after a fair bit of fiddling:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    The cheek-piece is kicked right over to the LHS about as far as the newly-spaced setup will allow. It's also rotated anticlockwise from the pillar's centreline, giving more room at the front and more support at the back.

    [​IMG]


    Thanks to this combination of modification and adjustment of the standard bits the setup is now a lot more comfortable, if still not quite ideal. I might lash up another spacer to allow some more angular adjustment before hopefully making a more presentable alternative (some .22LR Eley boxes were rescued from the club bin last night as they appear to be made of nice 1mm-ish thick black plastic ;) ).

    I'd also like to fit some washers to the four fixing bolts.. although irritatingly I can't find any self-coloured (black) steel washers anywhere so it looks like it'll have to be PVD black-finished (or maybe just plain) stainless items.

    In the long term ideally I'd like to replace the whole assembly with an Air Arms style ball and socket, although I suspect this would require a fair bit of effort / cost and tbh once it's somewhere near I'll probably lose interest.

    So yeah, in summary not particularly impressed with this area of the gun - the 50% cheaper Air Arms HFT500 being immeasurably superior in terms of range and ease of cheek-piece adjustment as well as ergonomics full stop. That said it's a lot better than it was and hopefully might still have a bit of room for improvement.


    In use the rifle now feels more comfortable; both because of the cheek-piece adjustment and also I think because I'm getting more used to it. I added some weight to the trigger as it was so light I struggled with applying constant pressure to it prior to release, which I think was causing me to snatch the shots high & right. This appeared to help, but I also found that post-setup the gun's POI had shifted high-right also (and I'd been too lazy to check the zero), which had doubtless compounded the problem.

    On the whole I find the gun to be an absolute pleasure to operate - simply cocking and loading it is an enjoyable process as everything feeling so refined and slick. Cocking lever operation is even more effortless thanks to the reduced striker spring pre-load and everything clicks positively and precisely into place at the command of subtle and gentle hand movements.

    The rifle encourages a calm, measured and deliberate approach to the whole shooting process :)

    The whirring from the bolt is still irritating but only really happens when it's worked quickly back and fourth; in general use it's not really noticeable. The trigger remains fantastic - smooth, light crisp and utterly predictable.

    There are still areas for improvement (mainly in terms or ergonomics) however I'm dead impressed by the technical aspects of the rifle and generally very pleased with it as a package. I find myself increasingly looking forward to the next opportunity to use it and it only seems to get better as issues are ironed out or simply seem to become less of an issue.

    So far the gun's had 70 shots through it since the new port and setup, using maybe 60bar from its 200bar fill; suggesting air usage of around 0.85bar per shot which would give about 140 shots per charge.. Of course I'll know more once I've put some more shots through it :)
     
  10. cloverleaf

    cloverleaf Super Moderator Staff Member Mod/Admin

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    My shooting with the gun has definitely improved on account of the tweaks / growing familiarity - the last two LSR cards (not comp, just practice) shot with the rifle - one from Wednesday night and one from earlier:

    [​IMG]


    I was really all over the place tonight but the gun somehow managed to steer them all into the middle for me. On a good night it almost feels as though you can't miss :)
     
    WillyWilky, Scott and PumpnGun like this.
  11. Patrick

    Patrick Donator

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    A comprehensive write up as usual Cloverleaf thank you and those groups look almost as good as the one you get with your Ultra. ;):)
     
    cloverleaf likes this.
  12. cloverleaf

    cloverleaf Super Moderator Staff Member Mod/Admin

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    The gun had another 50 rounds through it tonight - 40 on cards and 10 to assess the shot development time. The targets were alright if not quite as nice as last time - I dropped one each on the first two cards and maybe another 3 or 4 on the last two, so worst case an average of around 98.5 per card.

    I'm still not gelling with the trigger particularly well; I think it's the lack of over-travel stop that means the gun moves a lot when the trigger is released (usually right & upwards). In addition I like to shoot thumb up (which the stock design of the LG doesn't allow) so it's possible that during trigger release I'm pushing the gun to the right rather than straight back, due to my less-than-ideal thumb position.

    Finally in a possibly related issue, because the gun is so dead to shoot it mercilessly highlights poor trigger discipline - a perfect squeeze should see the gun move little off target when the shot is released, while I'm evidently pulling it off quite a long way :eek:


    Once the range was quiet I cracked out the listening gear and took some audio samples of the firing cycle; five with Exacts (the usual test pellet) and five with Express (because I forgot to change pellets initially from what I had been using on the range :rolleyes:).

    I had a problem with noise on a lot of the traces, but got some usable, representative plots for each pellet. The Exacts returned a shot development time (trigger release to pellet exit) of around 5.4ms, the Express coming in at around 5.2ms. Slightly disappointing compared to the LG110 I tested some time ago (which was in the high 4s), but there we go.

    I'm not sure what the cause of the difference is - it's highly likely that the last LG tested wasn't set up properly (same state as mine when received, so excessive striker spring pre-load giving a faster lock time), however I'm not sure that this would account for a difference as large as 0.7ms.

    Here's the trace for the Express:

    full.jpg


    Info on how to interpret these results can be found here, however basically the top channel is recording action noise (trigger release, striker impact etc) while the bottom one is recording muzzle noise. This one's not quite as informative as those I've had from other guns as everything's so light and the energies lower, so the whole action generates less noise to identify each event.

    The big thing to take away IMO is the enormous amount of striker bounce - on the bottom channel the smaller, first spike is air in front of the pellet being driven out of the barrel, while the second, larger spike is the muzzle blast as the pellet leaves the barrel. The subsequent 7 or 8(!) spikes are instances of air being released (wasted) because of hammer bounce. You can see that each spike on the muzzle channel corresponds to a slightly earlier disturbance on the action channel - the striker hitting the valve.

    The period between each air release falls from around 3ms to around 1.5ms, with most between being around 2.5ms giving a frequency of around 400Hz (cycles per second) - it's all over in less than 20ms or 1/50th of a second, far too fast for us to hear / identify the individual instances of bounce.. but it's certainly there!

    This potentially also explains why the gun still seems fairly loud - while the exhaust valve duration and amount of air being released with each striker impact is less post-setup, there remains a lot of air being released after the pellet has left the barrel due to the high frequency striker & valve oscillations.

    I think this is the greatest number of bounce events I've seen in any rifle, which is disappointing if not surprising. The exhaust valve return spring loading on the exhaust valve is quite high compared to the pressure loading (a stiff spring with a fair bit of pre-load plus a small valve and lowish operating pressure), so it figures that more energy will be returned to the valve during closing as a greater proportion of that used to open the valve is stored in the exhaust valve spring. In addition the rifle's striker is very light; requiring more spring energy to achieve a given valve duration and muzzle energy - another significant factor in causing bounce.

    The rifle's now had 135 shots through it since it was filled, the gauge suggesting it has around 90bar remaining. I'll fill the gun tomorrow to get a proper refill pressure, but these figures suggest that it's now using around 0.8bar per shot - considerably better (more than 1.5 times) than the 1.25ish bar per shot it was using before the port was sorted.

    Evidently it could be even better if the bounce was sorted, but of course that's easier said than done!
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2019
    Tadpole, WillyWilky, Oat and 2 others like this.
  13. amaser1

    amaser1 Donator

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    Wow ! Another great write up. Thank you for taking the time and the excellent photos :)
     
    cloverleaf likes this.
  14. WillyWilky

    WillyWilky Newbie

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    I love your attention to detail. Superb, many thanks.
     
    cloverleaf likes this.
  15. thumbhole

    thumbhole Posting Addict

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    Excellent as usual Mike, if any one can squeeze the optimum performance from it, you can your attention to detail is superb.:up:
     
    cloverleaf likes this.
  16. Cymru-Dave

    Cymru-Dave Donator

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    Ive missed your detailed posts and superb pictures!
     
    cloverleaf likes this.
  17. cloverleaf

    cloverleaf Super Moderator Staff Member Mod/Admin

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    Cheers guys :D
     
  18. raven hunter

    raven hunter Posting Addict

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    Very nice wright up mike and photos can i ask the foam at the breach did you fit that or was it supplied with the gun, and when you did a full string of say 1-10 what was the diffance between the highest and the lowest reading

    thanks andy
     
    cloverleaf likes this.
  19. cloverleaf

    cloverleaf Super Moderator Staff Member Mod/Admin

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    Ta :)

    The foam is standard fitment, although I believe some remove it - I must admit it does look a bit cheap. I've not done any dedicated 10-shot strings so can't say for certain what the exteme spread is.. I'd guess single figures over 10 shots though. Perhaps if I get a chance I'll run a few over at some point!
     
  20. gunnery

    gunnery Engaging Member

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    Hi Cloverleaf after reading your informative write up on Steyr LG110 hunter i sold BSA R10 and got my self Steyr 110 Hunter and i must say WOW mine is a well looked after used one mine came with a Hamster and stripper and scope raiser i have removed all that the only thing i find with it is shot count seems low about 70 shots per fill with a black port fitted that is what it came with chrono showing 11.3 and 770 using Exacts 8.44 4.52 very accurate but more testing needed mine as the foam standard fitment mine as as a spread of 16fps how do you get that down to single figures
     

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