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Spring Guide's 2 Piece Or 1 Piece?

Discussion in 'Technical' started by john79, Jan 11, 2019.

  1. john79

    john79 Keyboard Hero

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    Your thought's pro's and con's please :)
     
  2. mikeyhall1

    mikeyhall1 2018 Forum Nice Guy

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    I’ve got both 1 and 2 piece guides in several rifles and all have run in nicely - no issues with either in my experience and dificult to tell them apart once fitted.
     
    Blackmax and john79 like this.
  3. Tinbum

    Tinbum Donator

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    Both work about the same, one piece are easy and quick to make but if there's a fault in the plastic at the join between flange and shaft it can cause a failure. We made do with these for four years and the overall fail rate was approx 1%. Since moving over to two piece we have supplied over 3000 without a single failure that I know of!:)

    So from my point of view, more expensive and a pain in the bum, but 100% customer satisfaction.
     
  4. john79

    john79 Keyboard Hero

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    Good to know Nick ;)
     
  5. cooper_dan

    cooper_dan Engaging Member

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    Had 1 piece ones come apart on my tx200 (both metal oem and plastic aftermarket). Switched to mk2 2 piece guide and no more problems
     
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  6. Tinbum

    Tinbum Donator

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    Wow! You are only the second person I've heard of thats had a steel tx guide fail. The first was a customer a year ago, his gun broke every make of guide he'd fitted including three of mine and the steel one. He ran the new TbT two piece guide for a few months before we switched all the kits over. If his gun couldn't break one, no one's could!:D
     
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  7. cooper_dan

    cooper_dan Engaging Member

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    The end 'unpeened' itself (if thats the right word). I re-peened it with a bit of loctite for good measure and it works fine in another tx. Not sure what the cause was.
     
  8. craigster

    craigster Engaging Member

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    If you want the in-depth technical reason, failure can be anything from a bad stock of material to making the wrong choice of material ...to tightness of material..Eliminating all these things can mean single piece are perfectly fine to use but 2 piece negates the above issues...

    The main reason ive established, is that guides grip a spring (to varying degrees) at the end of the shot cycle..This introduces grab torsion into the guide which can be of a different force to that imparted to the base ...which is usually a slip torsion...This difference placing stress on the interface of the stem at the base...
    A 2 piece guide can handle the 2 forces independantly, meaning the stress is kept separate to each component..The guide stem being able to rotate indepenantly to the slip rotation of the base washer..
    I recommend Pom Delrin for the rod and a good quality steel for the base ...so that the 2 materials do not pick up on each other at the stem base...
    Made like this such guides can last many 1000s of rounds...Like so....
     

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    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019
  9. shauny

    shauny Pro Poster

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    grab torsion on a 1 piece shouldnt come into play. a correctly fitted guide will slide into a spring
    without too much force,when the spring is in its fully extended state.this is as tight as the guide will ever
    be in the spring,as when compressed ,the spring will slightly expand.a slip washer at base of guide helps with
    the small amount of spin that occurs when the spring unfurls,and stops it "biting" into the guide.if made properly,
    one piece guides dont break.so its a one piece all the time for me.
     

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  10. Tinbum

    Tinbum Donator

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    Tightness on the spring doesn't really come into it, but there is a case to be made that a poorly finished spring can score a line around the base. Either way the two piece has negated it.:)
     
  11. shauny

    shauny Pro Poster

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    craigster was talking about grab torsion,and this would only be a concern if spring too tight,allowing spring to clamp on to guide
    as it unfurled,as the guide in the spring should be at its snuggest when spring unfurled.have seen a few damaged guides caused
    by badly finished springs.
     
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  12. craigster

    craigster Engaging Member

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    But it does....Ive tested it and proven it...
    The base of a guide is under considerable force ...even at rest (dependant on pre-load) and much more so through the stages of compression..
    Taking it to the extreme , ive had a big HW80 tear off even mild steel guide rod from its base , let alone one of Delrin, when the spring was too tight. The forces are much higher than you think..
    So the force is present...just varying degrees less so...
    It simply cannot happen at the lower washer rim interface if its separate because its a separate force...from a simple physics point of view....
    Another aspect can be springs which are not wound parallel...being of nice slip where you are fitting it but might well be tighter at its mid point ...so what would be the point in not covering this potential risk..when designing such a guide being my argument...
    I accept its small and unlikely but has to be good practise ..
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019
  13. Tinbum

    Tinbum Donator

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    Ah right:thumb:
     
  14. shauny

    shauny Pro Poster

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    im getting a deja-vu here. im sure we have done this before???o_O
     
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  15. craigster

    craigster Engaging Member

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    Ill agree that tight guide design has had its day ....and had gone too far ...
     
  16. craigster

    craigster Engaging Member

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    We did ...but another poster has gone and dragged it up again...
     
  17. shauny

    shauny Pro Poster

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    ah good. beginning to think im losing the plot !
     
  18. john79

    john79 Keyboard Hero

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    Sorry guys :p


    2 piece guide now fitted so lets see how it performs:up:
     
  19. FPoole

    FPoole Busy Member

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    With factory TX200 guides, the 1-piece with the crimped on washer often failed. The 2-piece guide that came in older TX's is indestructible. Do new, current, TX's come with the old style 2-piece or the crimped washer 1-piece? My newest gun is from 2000 and it had the crimped 1-piece, but I opened up a late model and it had the old style 2-piece, so, I was just wondering.
     
  20. craigster

    craigster Engaging Member

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    Bowkett once tried fixing guides down solid into to trigger end blocks and one time the spring had hauled the guide up out of the end block taking some of the end block material with it...

    People are not allowing for the fact that springs cant over and press hard on a guide when cocked and then flying forward, considerable tensile force can be imparted into the rod pulling at it from its base at the point it starts to grab the guide .
    The early Tx rod has been changed to two piece ...so i can only think this was the reason why...
    Rotational force of spring is different to the tensile force it imparts into guide....best to keep em two piece
     

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