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Scopes, Clicks, Mil Dots And Moa

Discussion in 'Technical' started by Simonsays, Jun 28, 2020.

  1. Simonsays

    Simonsays Donator

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    Well I’m confused. Normally I just use the scope dots whatever they are on a particular reticle in accordance with ChairGun, zero by turning turrets by trial and error and all is good, it works.

    However the ret has more uses than holdover alone: range or distance estimation for example.

    I note MIL dots are essentially a metric system which make sense when you see the tabulations of mil dots subtended at multiples of 10s or 100s of metres which correspond to tens or hundreds of cm. Nice and easy.

    Conversely equivalent imperial measurements are a car crash to work with.

    So why then are mil dot scope clicks determined in imperial MOA 1/4” 100yds or whatever? Surely if calibrated to MIL it would be easy to calculate any offset when zeroing for example.

    Am I missing something?
     
  2. John Entwistle

    John Entwistle Busy Member

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    Mil dots are not moa are, you need to read up or watch a decent video
    Try this for mil dot

     
    Simonsays likes this.
  3. Reefmonkey

    Reefmonkey Engaging Member

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    Lots of scopes have none matching turrets and mildots.
    A good scope should be true Mil of true moa.not both.
    For airgun short range its not so big of an issue.
    But longer range it makes a massive difference.
     
    Simonsays likes this.
  4. jesim1

    jesim1 Kit bitch to the Stars

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    There are two types of measurements - MOA and MRAD, and I think you have them mixed up - but some scope manufactures do this also - no ideal why, they are just dumb I guess?

    MOA are Minuets Of Arc and are imperial with basically 1" at 100 yards - so a scope with a 1/4 click give 4 clicks to 1 MOA. If you think of that at air gun ranges it's more like 1/2" at 50 yards - and therefor 4 clicks give you a movement in POI of 1/2" etc......

    MRAD is the metric system and is short for Milliradian where the movement in POI is 10cm at 100m - or in air gun ranges it's more like 5cm at 50m, so scopes using this often have clicks of 0.1MRAD which is equal to a 5mm POI shift per click at 50m etc......

    So generally if you have a MOA scope reticule you would have a MOA scope, and if you have an MRAD reticule you would have a MRAD scope - and most of the time when we talk about "Mil dots" and "Hash marks" we are using them in the wrong context depending on the scope we are using unless we actually know about how it's labeled up and calibrated.

    Some of this is mute for air gun use however as the distances we use them at means the clicks are so small that they become interchangeable given the conditions and use, but it does matter if your hunting out at 300m for example where the POI shift opens up as distance goes out ;)

    e.g. a 1/8 MOA scope like a Delta Stryker will give you 1/32nd of an inch POI shift at 25 yards per click - which is tiny. And the same scope is available in 0.1 MRAD giving you 2.5mm per click at 25m - so the actual difference from an aim point of view is negligible.

    Basically learn your scope and you will be fine :D

    James
     
  5. gasman

    gasman Up a bit,,,,,,,

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    Am I missing something?

    Yeah a good scope
     
  6. gasman

    gasman Up a bit,,,,,,,

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    As said you need a milrad scope with a milrad ret
     
    metalman likes this.
  7. Grey Man

    Grey Man Posting Addict

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    I won't consider any scope that mixes MOA and MILRAD.
     
  8. Dag

    Dag Pro Poster

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    The U.S. market is both vast and in the main still uses imperial measurements. Many if not most scope manufacturers will probably calibrate in the most popular measurement system for that market.
     
    Simonsays likes this.
  9. Simonsays

    Simonsays Donator

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    My point is why are scopes made based on mixed units, ie mil dots and moa clicks.
     
  10. Simonsays

    Simonsays Donator

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    Thanks. I don’t think I have them mixed up.

    The question is why do so many scopes have mil dots (metric) and turrets in moa (imperial). Loads of Hawkes like this.
     
    BallisticBill likes this.
  11. Simonsays

    Simonsays Donator

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    Thanks I’ll take a look.
     
  12. Simonsays

    Simonsays Donator

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    Thanks but it’s a bit late now.
     
  13. Simonsays

    Simonsays Donator

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    There seem to be plenty that do.

    In all honesty I hadn’t given this any thought before but I would look for Milrad ret and turrets next time.
     
  14. Simonsays

    Simonsays Donator

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    Cruel but true!
     
    gasman likes this.
  15. Septic

    Septic Superbus et Vetera

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    I see no confusion, or contradiction in mixing the two...

    Milrads are great for calculating range. MOA is easier when zeroing. Mil dots are a great way to visualise hold for windage/elevation...
     
    border likes this.
  16. Stockscrew

    Stockscrew Busy Member

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    What you are missing is Strelok. Once set up with all the necessary data that is needed and your mil dot reticule selected, I zero my rifle to 30yds. The range value is inserted top RH corner and calculate button pressed. The info you see for any range is given in MOA, MRAD, Inches/mm or clicks. Next to this is a Reticule button, a click on this will show the same info as applied to a mil dot reticule.
    If you have not downloaded Strelok on your phone you are missing a trick, there's nothing to work out as the app does every thing except estimate your range and the one I use is free.
     
    Ukdiceman and Simonsays like this.
  17. Simonsays

    Simonsays Donator

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    Can you please explain why?
     
  18. td_boy

    td_boy Donator

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    I understand the point you're making, but I don't think ANY airgunners actually use the size of the mildots themselves or the subtension distance for range estimation.
    Most just use the subtension marks as reference points for pellet drop.
    In second focal plane its all pretty pointless anyway because the subtensions are only true at one exact magnification.
    I not even sure long range rifle shooters use them beyond BDC and they are more likely to dial in anyway.
     
    2506sendero and Simonsays like this.
  19. Simonsays

    Simonsays Donator

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    Thanks, sounds great. I had seen this app in the past but didn't buy it (probably because you do have to buy it!). Maybe I should as it will no doubt offer a fix.

    However it shouldn't be necessary to reach for a mobile device. And it doesn't explain why the manufacturers mix metric and imperial systems on their scopes. To my mind the clicks on the turrets should be simply related to fractions of a mil dot at a certain distance (like 100m, not some imperial equivalent).

    This is the case for a Milrad calibrated scope I gather, but plenty are mixed units.
     
  20. gasman

    gasman Up a bit,,,,,,,

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    No because if you have the same, the clicks equate too the Reticule hashes
     
    Simonsays likes this.

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