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Regulator leak when filled slowly?

Discussion in 'Anything Airgun Related' started by owenewo, Jun 15, 2014.

  1. owenewo

    owenewo Newbie

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    Location:
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    Hi, hoping for a bit of impartial advice. I brought a second hand s410 with an aftermarket reg fitted, and a stirrup pump. I sent the rifle to Maverick air rifles for a service and tune, and when it came back I pumped it up with the stirrup pump without any problems. Following day all the air had leaked out. Filled it again, and 24 hours later it was empty again. I contacted Maverick, and they arranged collection, decided to replace all the seals again instead of wasting time looking for the leak (they had already replaced them once as part of the service, and apparently pressure tested it for 24 hours). I asked if they had changed the seals in the reg as it was an aftermarket product, and they decided in light of this experience they would. They put it on a 48 hour test, discharged it and sent it back to me. I went to fill it up but all the air just poured straight out of the reg breath hole and a blown seal on the filling nozzle. I wasn't happy with this, but they weren't keen to collect again and asked me to change the filler seal myself if they sent it out. They explained that air was leaking out the breath hole as I wasn't filling the rifle quick enough to expand the seals as I was using a stirrup pump. Unconvinced, I replaced the filler seal, and pumped the rifle up as quickly as I could. Around 80bar the air did stop pouring out the breath hole and I was able to continue filling it. But 24 hours later the rifle was empty again. It looks as though air is still slowly coming out of the breath hole.

    What I'd like to know, is if anyone else agrees with Maverick rifles, that the problem lies with the speed that the rifle is filled (as I'm using a pump instead of a dive bottle). They insist it holds pressure when it is with them, yet having sent it back to me twice, it loses all pressure at home within a day. I also don't understand why I didn't have any problems filling it from empty the first time they sent it back to me (with the reg still having its old seals in), but with new seals it won't seal up until 80 bar. Is this normal, or am I being fobbed off?
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2014
  2. RichieRich

    RichieRich Ping!

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    Last edited: Jun 15, 2014
  3. yorkshireshoot

    yorkshireshoot Posting Addict

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    Why not just get it filled via bottle and keep it above 80 bar with a pump ?
     
  4. terry1001

    terry1001 Major Poster

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    If the air is leaking out of the regulator breath hole then there must be an issue with the regulator body o rings. I would imagine that they have either fitted seals which are too small or have caused some damage when refitting the regulator into the air cylinder. Which regulator is it?
    It sounds as though the regulator should be removed and inspected, check for damage to the o rings caused by catching on the air cylinder threads or burrs around the breather hole. The Robert Lane videos on youtube (link to one above) explain in detail how his regulator should be fitted.
    Clearly you need the correct o rings and they need to be smeared with grease before fitting (see the videos). It is possible to put a turn or two of ptfe tape in the o ring groove before fitting the ring to expand it slightly, again this is covered in the videos.
    A regulator is a fairly simple piece of equipment but they do need to be carefully fitted to a clean cylinder. While it probably helps to get some pressure onto the seals to get them to do their job it shouldn't be essential and once pumped up it should hold air.
    I suggest that you check for air leaks from the filler valve and the firing valve with balloons over the filler valve and the end of the barrel. A slow leak from the breather hole is a little more difficult to show but you may be able to put a small blob of grease over it to see what happens. When you have the answers you can go back to the shop with the results. You might also get leaks from one or both of the o rings between the pressure gauge and the rifle action which can often be seen if you put some WD40 or similar around the joints and watch for bubbles.
    Although o rings may well have been replaced it is still possible for them to leak if not fitted properly.
    By the time you've finished all this you'll appreciate the benefits of bottles over pumps.
     
  5. airtech

    airtech Busy Member

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    it sounds like its not correct simple test get it filled using a dive bottle take the stock off and but some oil or washing liquid on the reg breather hole. if its leaking still then the reg is not correct it can be the outer body reg seals or the piston seals but if you strip it down and replace them your self unless you have a means of testing the reg you will not know what you have set it too
     
  6. radiofan

    radiofan Engaging Member

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    One common mistake is to try and fill from empty, while the gun is uncocked. There is some spring pressure on the valve, which prevents it from closing until the gun reaches pressure.

    It is normal for the gun to dump air once it drops below a certain pressure.

    Try cocking the gun, then filling it using a pump. Keep the pressure above 80 BAR.
     
  7. terry1001

    terry1001 Major Poster

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    From the original post the gun loses air even after it has been filled to above 80 bar so there must be an air leak in the system, once the pressure drops to about 50 bar it would be normal for the gun to dump the remaining air.
    If there is a leak through the regulator piston seals then it is likely that the pressure both sides of the regulator would be equalised and (depending on the regulator fitted) this would show on the pressure gauge. I would stil suggest checking for leaks as I outlined previously but suspecting a problem with the regulator body to air cylinder o rings being wrong or damaged. I had a mysterious leak on my regulated S410 which I feared was body o rings but it turned out to be the o ring on the filler valve which I identified using a balloon.
    With a regulated gun it is quite likely that the firing valve spring has had the tension reduced and this can cause it to leak around the valve if the rifle is not cocked, this air would pass through the transfer port and down the barrel and this can be detected with a balloon over the end of the barrel with the silencer removed.
    Other possibilities are the cylinder end o rings (not likely), the pressure gauge o rings or the o ring around the transfer port between the upper and lower halves of the body - it is possible for this to fall out or be forgotten during assembly.
     
  8. radiofan

    radiofan Engaging Member

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    I just use soap suds for checking leaks. After all that hassle, if it really still leaks after pumping it up, I suggest sending it back and asking for a refund. I pump my regulated S410s up quite regularly, should not be a problem.

    Fitting a regulator properly (such that it doesn't leak) can be quite a lot of work.
     
  9. spike589715

    spike589715 Busy Member

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    Hi I have 3 rifles with rob lane regs which I fitted - you need the to atmosphere hole really
    none loose air and all are pumped with a pump I never worry how low they have gone and when setting up they were all pumped from empty
    I had to cock the Falcon as the pressure of the hammer on the valve kept it slightly open
    seems the gun needs properly sorting out if everything is right it should not loose air over night ( or weeks) and should not only be fill able from a bottle
    good luck with sorting

    si
     
  10. Maverick-ARP

    Maverick-ARP Newbie

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    Response to Post

    I have seen from the original post that our company has been mentioned by name and the content of the post has led at least one contributor to suggest that a refund is requested. I feel that his has a detrimental effect on our company name and may deter prospective customers.
    We received the TDR410 for a service and tune with an air leak. At that time it was mentioned that a reg was fitted. Generally leaks are resolved when the rifle is serviced. We duly serviced the rifle, removing and replacing the regulator with care as we do not service aftermarket parts. We did note the poor condition of the regulator however. The rifle was filled and pressure checked for 24 hours and no leaks were apparent. Had the rifle leaked, we would have looked at the regulator and advised it be replaced, due to its condition. The rifle was then discharged and sent back to the owner who reported a leak. It is unusual for a seal to fail so soon after leaving us in working order, so we presumed that the seal was faulty. We therefore arranged and paid for the collection of the rifle. At that point, we received a 'suggestion' from the owner that the leak might be coming from the breath hole. We examined the regulator in depth and found that it was the likely cause of the leak. We replaced all the seals again and refaced and refinished the regulator, replacing the seals. (this work was not part of our original service and not covered by our warranty). We pressure tested the rifle for 48 hours and sent it back. We advised that we had done this work under goodwill and it would not be covered by warranty. It was reported as leaking again, and that this time, the o ring sealing the filler valve was deformed and bulging. We were asked to collect the rifle again to sort it out. As it was a simple job to replaced the seal, we asked the owner to kindly do it himself and sent two genuine air arms seals. As we had photographed the rifle before it left and discharged the air from it, we knew that the seal was not faulty. The regulator repair had been done free of charge and was not covered by our warranty and it seemed unreasonable for us to pay £25 postage again for the sake of a two minute job. We had already paid 25% of the total invoice price in unnecessary postage.
    In the two years we have been trading we have not had one complaint and for two from the same person within such a short period of time, we decided to search the forums for guidance. We were surprised to find a post on another forum, from the current owner, prior to even sending us the rifle, admitting that he had bought the rifle AND FITTED THE REGULATOR HIMSELF AND MESSED IT UP.
    The post will not allow a direct link, but google search accepts the below link.
    /showthread.php?701442-PCP-Leak

    There was nothing wrong with the work we completed, yet we paid to collect it and return it and refinished the damage he had caused attempting to fit the regulator himself. The rifle left us on both occasions having passed the pressure test.
    Had the owner been up front and said that he had fitted the regulator himself and messed it up and that he knew the leak was coming from the breath hole, we would have saved a lot of time and effort. Instead we carried out the work without fault and were deceived into thinking that our workmanship was at fault so we would effect a warranty repair.
    We completed all the work he asked of us with the exception of work that would render the gun unsafe. We waived the standard £25 fee for receiving a sound moderator from another dealer and applied a 10% new customer discount. He left us positive feedback.

    I would not normally reply to such posts however being mentioned as a company by name has led me to do so. The above post will remain on here for some time and the number of potential customers we may lose is high so my reply should also remain on here also.
     
  11. Scott srs

    Scott srs Well-Known Member

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    Fair play to you mate goes to show there are two sides to every story
     
  12. terry1001

    terry1001 Major Poster

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    I've had a look at the thread over on the darkside and suggest you contact one of the mod team by pm.
     
  13. owenewo

    owenewo Newbie

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    Location:
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    As anyone reading this can gather, there is a dispute between myself and Maverick, my post on here was to get a second opinion on their advice rather than to be openly critical of their work, as they have now taken the move of posting on here casting me in a bad light, I feel I should respond by giving my side of the long sorry saga (as there are two sides to every story)

    Basically, as per the thread Maverick has linked to, I brought a second hand S410TDR and decided to fit an after market reg myself, along with changing the air cylinder to the longer one from the carbine version of the rifle in the hope of vastly improving the shot count. I brought the reg through Robert Lane and he was incredibly helpful, unfortunately I kept getting a slow leak from the breath hole. During one of the many strip down and rebuilds to try and fix this leak, I ended up damaging the stand off spacer, so I made a new one from copper pipe, which also crumpled as it was too soft. I made a new one out of galv steel and got the rifle working, but still had the same leak from the breath hole. The rifle would empty a full cylinder of air in 24 hours. I had been in contact with Robert Lane, and explained what had gone on and he said I could send it to him and he would put it right, obviously there would be a charge for this but by this point I was happy to pay to get it sorted. I figured if I was paying someone to put it right, I may as well get a pressure gauge fitted to the front of the rifle as the factory one is now on the low pressure side of the reg and wouldn’t give an indication of how much air is left in the cylinder (just the pressure of the reg). Robert said he couldn’t do this, and that he was going away for a few weeks, so I made the regrettable decision to try and find someone else who could fix the leak and fit a gauge, and be able to sort it quickly. I found out about Maverick through a google search, and explained that I had a rifle with a leak through the breath hole of an after market reg, and listed the extra couple of jobs I wanted doing including the pressure gauge and machining a new stand off spacer. I didn’t admit to doing the work myself out of embaressment but did explain all the problems and was told that they could sort it out for me. I spoke to their engineer on the phone who assured me it would all get sorted and the pressure gauge wouldn’t be a problem. Despite asking on this forum if anyone had used them and getting no replies, I decided to give them a go and sent the rifle away. Their communication was good and they kept me up to date, they emailed to say that the pressure gauge couldn’t be done which was annoying as it was the only reason I sent it to them rather than Robert Lane, other than the fact I would have to wait for Robert. I was told they had done all the work and machined a new stand off spacer out of aluminium, pressure tested for 24 hours before discharging and send the rifle back to me. When it arrived back I pumped it up, and the air leaked out within 24 hours. I contacted Maverick who arranged collection, and “sudgested” as they put it to check the reg breath hole, I had already explained the leak from the breath hole in my original email where they said they could fix it, but as I hadn’t admitted to doing the work myself I asked if they could check the leak from there. They were then very critical of the Robert Lane reg and said it was “inferior” but changed the seals, put it under a 48hour pressure test, discharged and returned the rifle to me. When I went to fill it, air gushed from a blown seal on the filling port and from the breath hole. They sudgest I caused this but I don’t see how, its not exactly a technical process to charge the rifle and I have never had any problems in the past. Having spoken to many people since, the general consensus is that Maverick probably discharged the rifle for posting by unscrewing the filling port – damaging the seal in the process and causing the reg to shift inside the cylinder exposing the breath hole. They weren’t interested in collecting the rifle again and asked me to change the filling port seal myself, which I did but of course the air still gushed out of the breath hole. They told me that it was down to the fact that I was using a pump and not a bottle so the seals wouldn’t expand quickly enough, so I pumped as quickly as I could and around 80 bar the gushing of air from the breath hole sealed off (as the reg would have shifted back into position) but still the air leaked out within 24 hours. They put it down to filling too slowly and the poor state of the “inferior” reg.

    Unhappy with this I asked on here for a second opinion, and I also got back in touch with Robert Lane. He was naturally very upset with his reg being called inferior and as the true gent he is gave me lots of advice about the cause of the leak and also said he was still prepared to fix it for me (top bloke). I decided I would have a go at sorting the problem myself based on Roberts advice (basically polishing the inside of the air cylinder – something I hadn’t done as I had brought a new one and assumed it would be flawless). When I opened the rifle up I found my original home made galv stand off spacer fitted, despite being invoiced for a machined aluminium one. Naturally I complained to Maverick about this and they were in denial but straight away pointed out that as I had opened the rifle myself, I had voided their warranty on their work and would no longer cover the rifle or investigate the leak. I sent them photos to prove they hadn’t done work they invoiced me for, and they told me that when they had rebuilt the rifle the second time, that the wrong stand of spacer had accidentally been put back in, and that they would send the machined one out to me in the post as I had paid for it. This seemed plausible until it arrived, where upon it was obvious it had never been fitted in my rifle. The inside diameter was too narrow to fit on the seat of the reg, and the length was so long that the breath hole would be exposed, so there was no way it would have ever worked, and no way it had ever been fitted in my rifle. They had clearly made it after they had been caught out, and as they no longer had my rifle to measure from, got the dimensions all wrong.

    I took this opportunity to polish the inside of the air cylinder, which naturally Maverick should have done as I had sent them the rifle to fix the breath hole leak, but it was clear that they hadn’t. I stripped the reg down to clean, check seals and regrease and was upset at the additional damage I found. The damage I had caused before sending the rifle to Maverick had simply been some scratches and gouges to the stand of spacer seating lip on the end of the reg, where it had crushed the stand off spacer. Not pretty but in no way would it affect the operation of the reg. Now however there were deep scratches on the reg body under the outer o-rings, no doubt by whatever tool Maverick had used to remove them on the second time they had the rifle. I polished these out and rebuilt the reg. I used wet & dry paper to file the aluminium stand of spacer down to size (took a VERY long time) and despite filling using my stirrup pump the rifle is still holding pressure (must be coming up to two weeks now). As I had now repaired the rifle myself I haven’t even bothered to continue the spat with Maverick, I just want to wash my hands of them and have learnt the lesson that fancy websites and all the promises someone gives you is meaningless, and that recommendations from others is the only way to go with this sort of thing. I know this is just a he says/she says, one word again the other argument now played out in public (not my intention, my post had been to get a second opinion on bottle versus pump and whether it makes a difference to a leak), but I feel after Maverick’s reply, I have a right to put my side across. If any administrators on here want to investigate it, I am happy to forward all the email exchanges between myself and maverick, and between myself and Robert Lane to them so they can make up their own mind. Naturally anyone thinking of using Maverick themselves may want to read them as well, obviously I do not personally recommend them. Robert Lane on the other hand is a top bloke, been very happy with the quality of the reg he sent me, and has been an absolute gent with all the help and advice he has given me. The last thing I want is for any of this to reflect on him in any other way than positive, Maverick on the other hand…
     
  14. owenewo

    owenewo Newbie

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    Noticed a mistake in my reply, it was on the ********* forum that I had asked for recommendations for Maverick without getting any replies, not this forum.
     

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