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Question Regulated rifles

Discussion in 'Anything Airgun Related' started by tomsteebs, Apr 6, 2014.

  1. tomsteebs

    tomsteebs Donator

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    A small question,

    Does a regged rifle get more consistent with better mechanical parts aswell?
    My point, I assume a regulater essentially divides the air channel and makes a certain pressure only available at the trigger end. Now if that pressure is essentially used then replaced, used and then replaced that surely is where consistency occurs....
    But I guess a more consistent hammer spring area etc... Would make the consistency increase, of the valve releasing air into the transfer port valve from the regged chamber?
     
  2. spike589715

    spike589715 Busy Member

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    Hi check out shot strings of regulated guns against un regulated gun
    here is my AT44
    http://www.theywalkamongstus.co.uk/airguns/at44.html

    from a curve to a straight line ... Over the full shot range .... I do love it when people say I get a 5 fps variation ..... Over 5 shots .... With a reg you get very little variation from first to last shot - I am a fan of properly set up regulators

    some unregulated guns seem to have better curves than others but it seems quite hard to find full string graphs
    why don't manufactures publish what their guns typically will achieve ?

    Cheers
    simon
     
  3. terry1001

    terry1001 Major Poster

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    You're right, the regulator is one part of the sytem, it's the main part and the easiest to fit. Just using some typical figures a rifle may have a max fill pressure of 200 bar but would normally be filled to 170 bar and refilled at 130 (for example). The regulator will supply air at constant pressure of 100 bar to the firing valve so now you can fill to 200 bar and not refill until 100 bar. Effectively you are putting 2.5x as much usable air into the rifle which is where you get the increase in shots per fill, unfortunately the regulator will occupy some space in the cylinder which reduces the capacity and means that you won't get double the number of shots.
    The firing assembly will have been designed to cope with pressures from 200 bar down to 80/100 bar but after fitting the regulator you will have a constant 100 bar and so the firing mechanism can be modified to suit this situation. In the first instance the hammer spring/hammer is designed to open the firing valve at double the new working pressure so would almost certainly let through more air than required for the legal velocity. The springs are consistent in themselves and won't need to be upgraded but the whole firing mechanism can be balanced so that it produces the correct volume of air for each shot - this is where the cost of regulating a rifle increases as it can be a very time consuming job and it's not possible to say that a, b and c need to be replaced by x,y and z.
    I have just about finished doing this on my AA S410 Classic and it was a very long job, taking a lot of time, air and pellets to get to where I wanted to be. As part of this I did make and install an anti bounce hammer which took up most of the time, this is intended to stop the hammer rebounding several times in each firing cycle and opening the firing valve each time which wastes air.
    Any mechanical improvements are likely to help in improving consistency, things such as polishing moving parts and using appropriate lubrication will help to make the action quicker and smoother and should give improved shot to shot consistency. All mass produced items are built to a price point and the sort of hand finishing that you, as an owner, are prepared to do would double the cost if done at the factory. CNC machining does produce parts which have close tolerances but nearly everything will then go straight to final assembly where, if it were being hand built, each part would be inspected by sight and touch and de-burring, polishing etc would be done to get everything as near perfect as you wish.
    Fitting a regulator and doing the associated work will allow you to tailor your rifle exactly to your requirements but it will take time. It's well worth watching the videos done by Robert Lane which explain properly what should be done and how to do it https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxM7qYYHDVTzM96haUX7LHA
    I will post the details of shot strings when I have had the chance to do them properly.
     
  4. tomsteebs

    tomsteebs Donator

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    Thanks
    Oh I yes, I'm a big fan of Roberts work and have had a few things from him, typically his regs on there own will give 8fps spread in there own, so i was wondering if this is then improved with different internals in the action.
    As you have said yes it is, but it's all about trial and error.
     
  5. metalman

    metalman Big Poster

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    Shot string from a blueprinted rather than regged Scorp SE

    Although i was very happy with my Scorpion SE straight out of the box, after firing Cannons regged gun, it made mine seem "twangy" and the trigger left a lot to be desired. Also the bolt was stiffer compared to my other guns, so i decided to send it to JB for a blueprint.

    What a difference, it is now so quiet, and the trigger silky smooth to use, i also had a "big ball" fitted to make cocking that much easier, now for a few stats,

    .22” Scorpion SE.



    Standard factory unmodified after shooting for approx. one month.



    Recommended 200bar fill. Pellets 15.9g AA Field (JSB Exact)



    532fps 542 541 543 544 546 546 545 545 547



    551 550 551 552 549 549 554 553 555 556



    553 556 556 557 560 561 561 560 561 563



    561 561 564 564 566 564 564 566 567 567



    567 569 570 566 570 569 571 571 571 571



    570 569 573 571 572 572 573 576 572 572



    574 575 576 573 572 571 572 570 570 569



    567 568 566 568 565 565 565 566 564 564



    562 566 564 561 561 557 557 558 552 551



    552 549 545 545 544 540 538 534 535 533





    Same Scorpion SE Blueprint Tuned and set up to give minimum spread in velocity over whole fill.



    230bar fill AA Field .22” 15.9g pellet



    557fps 556 555 555 560 558 558 560 561 560



    559 562 564 568 564 564 563 565 565 566



    567 568 568 570 567 571 568 568 571 569



    570 568 570 570 572 572 570 568 570 572



    572 572 570 570 571 571 570 569 569 567



    570 569 570 568 569 567 567 564 567 564



    566 562 564 564 561 561 562 560 560 559



    558 557 557 556



    Total extreme spread over whole fill is + or – 8.5fps.
     
  6. tomsteebs

    tomsteebs Donator

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    I think only Terry has grasped my question :)
    I know tuning guns improves and I know regging does (I've had a few) and I wondered if tuning a regged gun improves consistency.

    Good results above though:
    From 15fps spread over 70 odd shots to 8fps.
    I'm guessing he put in a new harder hammer spring as the pressure of the power curve has changed, so lock time should be quicker?

    Top trumps time (regged):

    My fx2000 carbine does 120 shots with +/- 8fps :D the full length do 230 with the same consistency :)
    With weighed pellets it would be about 4-5fps :D
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 6, 2014
  7. terry1001

    terry1001 Major Poster

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    Hopefully Cloverleaf will be along to add to this, he knows much more than most about this sort of thing.
    Once a regulator is fitted you get a good, consistent supply of air to the firing valve. From that point there are various areas where mods can be made to get that air behind the pellet in the best way possible, for example:
    transfer port - size and 'smoothness' (no bits sticking into the port to disrupt air flow)
    Firing valve - the spring pressure and air flow around the valve and into the transfer port
    Hammer - the amount of energyy transferred to the firing valve which depends on:
    how easily the hammer moves, polished guide rail etc
    the weight of the hammer
    the energy in the spring
    the distance the hammer travels
    All of these things need to be balanced to get the most from the regulator.
    For most people I'm not sure that a regulator is worth installing, the gains are not that great and some (makes and models of ) rifles will be extremely good straight out of the box. On the other hand if you want the best results possible from a rifle or you have the time, knowledge and tools to carry out the mods in a logical and careful manner then there are definitely benefits to be had. I can tell you that this is likely to take ages and be extremely frustrating at times, luckily I have another rifle to use :)
    In my personal opinion it's not worth spending the time and money on some rifles as no matter how much work you do and money you spend they won't ever be as good as some are out of the box. It is, however, worth doing some of the basic improvements which can be done in an hour or two and require only some wet and dry paper and oil/grease (and maybe some o rings etc). When you start taking drills and grinders to your pride and joy there is alwasy a risk that it could end up FUBAR.
     
  8. Ganton Gunner

    Ganton Gunner Super Duper Moderator Staff Member Mod/Admin

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    ok the simple answer is YES it does :)
     
  9. airtech

    airtech Engaging Member

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    we have built regs since 1990 for vertualy every pcp rifle made . making and fitting a reg is easy its setting every thing else in the gun to work with the reg that takes the time a reg may take a day to make. setting the rifle may take up to 2 days. we now have a extensive range of dummy air tubes just big enouth to hold the reg only we fit these tubes to the action and set up the rifle. once set we know where the hole needs to be in the original air tube. and the volume of air needed.just buying a eg of e bay and putting it i ther gun will definatly not make the gun work the way it should. you will need to change other parts too.
     
  10. tomsteebs

    tomsteebs Donator

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    Yes, I would assume the reg would be installed correctly first, not just bung it in the cylinder as Robert has told me about people who get so close to setting a reg up properly but don't do the small modifications which lead to big increases in the function of the reg and rifle.

    But i suppose in essence you want the piston/hammer to be hitting the cylinder valve with consistency and once, and then you want the air to freely travel efficiently to the pellet?
    So it's basically a case of getting the car modified and the road clear for a smooth ride pelletown
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2014
  11. Steve K

    Steve K Posting Addict

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    Yes mate, a regged rifle can be made more consistent by fitting better parts with better tolerances, and fine tuning the reg and hammer tension. ;)
     
  12. GIRLYPANTS

    GIRLYPANTS Banned

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    yes it does ..... no need for all that extra twoddle
     
  13. terry1001

    terry1001 Major Poster

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    It's not really the quality of the parts that is relevant, the best results come from having those parts adjusted correctly so that they work in harmony with the regulator. As with all replacement parts it's always better to have good quality parts made to exacting tolerances than to make do with inferior bits.
     

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