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"pre Tuned" Rifles? Why So Few Available?

Discussion in 'Anything Airgun Related' started by Dan1978, Jan 5, 2020.

  1. Dan1978

    Dan1978 Engaging Member

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    So with all the tuning sub industry surrounding airguns, most of which seems to be simple drop in kits (undoubtedly effective) which guns actually come claiming "pre tuned" status?

    You could say the Walther range from the Century upwards do so, as they all include a top hat and synthetic bearing on the piston

    Air Arms springers the same

    Not so any of the HW range I don't think?

    How many other manufacturers out there actually bother to at least add a simple top hat and slip washer in addition to the main guide?

    Surely it's a cheap production step to include and would increase their guns appeal and performance

    So............why do 99% of springers simply have a main spring guide and not a simple top hat fitted as standard?

    Production costs would be minimal and the consumer is clearly happy to pay for it when you think how many after market drop in tuning kits are sold and fitted????
     
    willo1962 likes this.
  2. Chouchin66

    Chouchin66 Busy Member

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    Guns are built to a price point, tuning is a state of mind !

    .
     
    shergar, foxtrott, SlugFest and 4 others like this.
  3. Bunny-on-Bunny

    Bunny-on-Bunny Busy Member

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    If a full drop-in kit costs £100 from a tuner, that's the extra you'd pay (maybe more) if it was done at the factory and sold as a factory tune, which you'd still have to eff about with to make it work...
     
    foxtrott likes this.
  4. edtwozeronine

    edtwozeronine Donator

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    I'll agree it does seem dumb but it's not part of the manufacturing process. It's more like post production on a film, they have all the raw footage; next step lots of editing.

    There are shops like that one Si Pitaway is sponsored by that tune guns before they sell them but they still have to get the raw product in first.
     
    willo1962 likes this.
  5. Kadushu

    Kadushu Engaging Member

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    Even the Air Arms can be tuned further. They are designed for FAC power, so naturally there are tweaks that can make them better suited to sub 12fpe.

    As to your question, I wonder the same with regards to very cheap components. I guess it's a toss up between cost and whether the average customer would appreciate the difference.
     
    willo1962 likes this.
  6. Chouchin66

    Chouchin66 Busy Member

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    One man's opinion here...sane people will buy a cheap Springer to appease Jr. ... Or as some passing fad. Those, like we forum followers... Just have to tweak, fettle, tune etc.(pick your favorite term)...in the quest for accuracy , shot count...whatever blows up yer skirt...as such , we are somewhat fanatical... Lonbh live Air Guns!

    .
     
  7. jesim1

    jesim1 Kit bitch to the Stars

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    Often the reality is a commercial one - not enough people will pay the extra to have a gun like this or the manufacturers would make it - and I'm quite sure the likes of the HW/AA people have the market research to prove it :eek:
     
  8. Bozz

    Bozz Busy Member

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    Yes but i think the point is that AA and Walther can do it why oh why can't the others, to my mind it just shows that they are over charging.
    Graham.
     
    Dan1978 and willo1962 like this.
  9. Peter Norris

    Peter Norris Posting Addict

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    I can only speak for Weihrauch springers, I imported 6 in the past.
    The additional manhours required to properly deburr plus fit a simple kit would cost money, especially deburring.
    I once wrote to Weihrauch and asked why they didn't blow out the internal components with an air line to remove swarf before assembly?
    As expected no reply :)
    Never mind it kept me busy during retirement.
    Peter.
     
    Dr B and foxtrott like this.
  10. Dan1978

    Dan1978 Engaging Member

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    This ^^^


    I'm sure they could put in a simple cheap item like a tophat, boast about it in the sales blurb, add more to the price than the minimal costs of production and assembly with it in place and find a niche in the market

    Not talking full tune, perfectly made air gun holy grails here, just a single item of delrin mass produced and chucked in on the end of the spring

    The manufacturers all seem to fit a spring guide but no top hat

    That's what I don't understand

    There's a market for it with people prepared to pay, hence the drop in kit market that exists
     
    foxtrott likes this.
  11. Guloluseus

    Guloluseus Could I hit it again? You'll never know :)

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    Tuning a gun means looking at it individually, not as a batch. AA and Walther dont sell tuned guns, they just put a bigger budget into it. My Prosport, while very well made, was full of grease and lube- if it was tuned that would NOT be there!
    Each gun will need different fixes to bring it up a notch- some might need sears polished, while another is fine because you got lucky in the manufacturing process. One might need a piston sleeve but the next 3 dont as the spring is slightly bigger. My point is that each gun has its own set of things that need doing, and its really not an automatable process.
     
    Seamaster, pbrown, Gary Jones and 2 others like this.
  12. Dan1978

    Dan1978 Engaging Member

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    Yes but we are not talking about bespoke tuning of individual guns so to clarify the symantec's of my question lets slim it right down to this:

    Why are 99% of guns sold in stock form with a rear mainspring guide but no tophat and slip washer?

    Surely it'd appeal to buyers and be a cheap addition to the manufacturing process which the main brands could up their prices slightly and make a further profit on?

    People obviously want top hats as many tuning drop in kits containing them are sold and many of these kits do not come with a spring, just the guides - so are not bespoke to that individual gun nor that individual spring or individual piston yet still they sell well and people rave about the results

    So my question is aren't most of the manufacturers/brands missing a trick by not fitting top hats as standard?
     
    foxtrott likes this.
  13. Mice!

    Mice! Engaging Member

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    I don't know how any manufacturer gets away with things like this, I've worked in several factories automotive aerospace oil & gas where there are deburring cells and that's all they do, debut.

    Seems like yet more cost cutting at the customer's expense.
     
    Peter Norris and foxtrott like this.
  14. Victor Robert Allaway

    Victor Robert Allaway Engaging Member

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    My guess is that whilst the benefits of the top hat are well known, to be effective it needs to be a better fit in the spring than can be achieved simply by manufacturing them to a nominal size. Make them too big and they need to be eased by hand with abrasive. Make them too small and little benefit remains. So fitting a few pennies worth of kit becomes a time consuming and therefore expensive option.

    Rob
     
    Peter Norris likes this.
  15. Peter Norris

    Peter Norris Posting Addict

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    Yes, agreed, just the bean counters again !
    You must be old enough to remember the Note on drawings "Break all Sharp Edges" :)
    Peter.
     
    shergar likes this.
  16. Guloluseus

    Guloluseus Could I hit it again? You'll never know :)

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    Probably because it would need a complete new system. new machines, probably retooling of some existing, not to mention redesign and acquisition of new parts. Then you need to change the factory layout to accommodate the new design, and allow for lack of production while all this is going on. Its not a case of adding on a few pence for a slightly different design, but allowing for the complete change. you then have another factor to add in for additional production time, which reduces output, and thus profit.
    Take the TX200 and prosport. Theres about a 20% uplift in price, (according to Pellpax, about 120 quid)- for essentially the same gun with some improvements ( I know thats a generalisation, but effectively thats what it is). Considering that they have been making them for a while, initial costs for design/ retooling have probably been absorberd by now, but would you really want that sort of increase across the board? Manufacturers make something for mass markets, and most people dont want a tuned gun, they want something they can shoot. I know my RFD sells probably 90% of his guns to people that just want something cheap to shoot with, while of the other 10% , maybe 10% of them will look to get a gun tuned by themselves or someone else.

    If the market was there, they would do it. However most people dont care, they want cheap, and thats what drives the economy.

    Because in these industries price isnt a driving factor, quality is. They cannot afford to have component failure, as it will cost them a lot of money if it goes wrong and it was avoidable. Very different to springers.
     
  17. Dr B

    Dr B Grizzly Airgunner

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    If people stop buying modern HWs - then they might start listening. :shrug:
     
    jesim1 and Mice! like this.
  18. mikeyhall1

    mikeyhall1 2018 & 2019 Forum Nice Guy

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    IMO even if you really could (you can’t) buy a tuned gun from AA or Walther etc there will only ever be degrees of success due to their own QC. They can add all the bearings and guides etc but their QC will never match that of a tuner.

    Don’t get me wrong, a TX and a LGU is better “out the box” than a 97 but a sorted 97 is better than the TX and LGU “out the box”
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2020
  19. Bozz

    Bozz Busy Member

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    Probably but by the time it's tuned it has more than likely cost more than the others so where is the point, I think they just like ripping the general public off.
    Graham
     
  20. shergar

    shergar Posting Addict

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    Many would prefer to do their own tune and spend money saved on a custom stock. Example Hw99 - v - SFS Imp.
     

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