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pcp damage using a pump

Discussion in 'Anything Airgun Related' started by big al 1960, May 31, 2015.

  1. big al 1960

    big al 1960 Member

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    Hi all, just a quick question concerning the pump v bottle charging debate.Has anyone actually experienced first hand or knows anyone that has suffered damage to their rifle from using a pump? I personally use a pump and touchwood am not aware of any detriment to my HW 100 but have seen the issue raised of "horror stories"concerning prolonged pump usage but never any facts to back this up, cheers, Al.
     
  2. Stevie Darling

    Stevie Darling Sexual tyrannosaurus

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    I have used my fx pump for years, had my rifle apart many times

    and I can't see any evidence of damage.
     
  3. Greg1983

    Greg1983 Busy Member

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    same as above, always used a pump and never noticed any damage when I have opened a air cylinder up.

    I do hear that if you pump fast with a pump that it can cause heat which in turn causes condensation but am yet to see this effect on any of my guns :)
     
  4. dave goodall

    dave goodall Donator

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    Buddy bottle guns suffer more u can see evidence on say rapids when the reg locking screw rusts also debri can be sucked in and pumped in to the tube then causing small scratches on the valve seat causing leaks only takes a tiny mark to cause a fast leak although I do use a pump myself but my air cylinder is titanium so no chance of corrosion and most the Ineers are made of the same or the likes
     
  5. Accuspell

    Accuspell Pro Poster

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    This is why you haven't had the damage that using a hand pump CAN cause.

    I saw a 6 month old Steyr, an Olympic shooters gun actually. It was pitted, the valave had corroded, it was a mess - all caused by pumping in high RH air.

    You need to understand Relative Humidity to appreciate how much water you are introducing to the inside of your rifle. Bottles filled from a diving centre are filled with breathing quality air - if you used a hand pump to fill a dive bottle you would DROWN the user by filling their lungs with water! That is why breathing air is limited to a new standard of 50ppm (parts per million) the old standard was 80ppm. That is 0.0008%

    Atmospheric air in this country is often at a Relative Humidity of 80% and if you are lucky, on a very dry, cold winter day you can have it as low as 50%. RH is dependent on temperature and pressure. Warmer air can hold a greater amount of water vapour than cold air at the same pressure. Higher pressure can hold less water than lower pressure - this is where the introduction of water comes in...you start with low pressure air when pumping it in and build the pressure up. The air you introduce contains many times the amount of water vapour bottle air of breathing quality (how much depends on the RH when you are pumping!) As you fill the reservoir, the pressure increases and the air inside can no longer hold the same quantity of water vapour, basically the water gets squeezed out of the air, like squeezing a sponge, it can hold water while it is just sat there, as you increase the pressure on the sponge, so more water gets squeezed out. Boyle's Law is what you need to get your head around.

    Those who take the rifles apart regularly, I would suspect, clean the components before they get put back together again....this cleaning is looking after the components. A rifle that gets filled by bottle and never opened has water introduced in the air that is left there to do damage - this first became apparent in the early Daystate rifles, and Air Arms, who used steel tubes for reservoirs...Daystate noticed the corrosion inside these early cylinders,m which is why they give a 10 year service life on their cyclinders - they have no control over how the rifle is going to be filled. If it is filled with diving air, the life span will be 30 years, maybe more...but filled with a bottle that water vapour being squeezed to release the water is what is causing concern.

    You can poo- poo the effects all you like, but the laws of physics are their just the same! The materials used in the components will have a big bearing too - brass is better than steel, titanium or 316 stainless better again. Non-ferrous metals will suffer less than ferrous ones.
     
  6. bhodge

    bhodge Posting Addict

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    There's so much information contained within this reply....
    I think that maybe it should be made a "Sticky".
     
  7. cloverleaf

    cloverleaf Super Moderator Staff Member Mod/Admin

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    I've never seen a PCP irreparably or dangerously damaged by moisture from a pump, but have experienced problems with damp air in the past.

    I spent one particularly humid summer intensively using my S410 and filling with a 1st gen. Hills pump. When I came to strip the gun some time later I found several large beads of water floating around inside the cylinder (maybe in the region of 0.5-1cm^3). The Nylon inlet valve was shafted, the brass valve pot was corroding (a light dusting of green) but the cylinder was fine (presumably due to the thin film of oil it had on its surface.

    At the time the valve was replaced with a newer black one (which I now know to be inferior :(), it all went back together and worked (works) fine.

    It's pretty well-known that manual pumps lack the ability to remove as much moisture as dive-shop compressors; although they do make an effort to catch the condensation and blow it out of the system via the bleed screw (esp. FX designs). Hills do the "drypac" add-on - although I think the only purpose this really serves is separating the unwary from their money as I can't see how passing the air through a dessicant on the low pressure side of the pump can do any good whatsoever (happy to be proven wrong, though :)).

    I think one needs to be careful when selecting a filling method - IMO pumps are better suited to relatively low-intensity use on account of their inability to supply "dry" air along with the physical exertion involved. In addition, I'd be more comfortable using one in conjunction with guns that don't have separate cylinders (as these are usually easier to strip and inspect), and avoiding use with any rifle that uses Nylon valve gear etc (mostly early AA and Daystate guns).

    :)
     
  8. cloverleaf

    cloverleaf Super Moderator Staff Member Mod/Admin

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    One other quick note - the "cylinder depressurisation tool" supplied with the HW100 is designed to help you sidestep the moisture issue - the idea is that periodically the cylinder is filled, left to stand gauge-end-up, then drained of air in this orientation using the tool - the idea being that any moisture in the cylinder accumulates at the bottom and is blown out when the cylinder is vented :)
     
  9. 177man

    177man Engaging Member

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    A friend of mine uses a pump on 2 x hw100 and a aa s410 all three have had issues with leaks
    and power loses is this due to his pump or just bad luck ?
     
  10. cloverleaf

    cloverleaf Super Moderator Staff Member Mod/Admin

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    I'd guess bad luck; unless the S410 was an early one with a Nylon valve as described above..
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2015
  11. 177man

    177man Engaging Member

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    Its not much over a year old and the hw100 where brought together about 18months ago
     
  12. Patrick

    Patrick Donator

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    So if using a pump would pumping slowly to avoid heat reduce the risk of moisture?
     
  13. Lydford

    Lydford Posting Addict

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    This is rather concerning:eek:! I have just purchased a new Daystate Regal and, living a considerable distance from the nearest bottle filling facility, I have always used a pump and intend doing so with the Regal. Bought my HW100 new two years ago and have had no problems at all. Is it just a matter of time?
     
  14. Dr B

    Dr B Grizzly Airgunner

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    I've had an S410K for 12 years, no problems, always filled with pump. Never been stripped down as fires like a dream. No leaks. Pumps are fine.
     
  15. Stevie Darling

    Stevie Darling Sexual tyrannosaurus

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    I had the same concerns about pumps,

    but then I thought why would fx sell a pump that will damage high end rifles.
     
  16. busanga

    busanga Busy Member

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    What is relevance of nylon valve re. moisture
     
  17. waldo

    waldo Well-Known Member

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    Superb explanation , many thanks for that :up::D
     
  18. waldo

    waldo Well-Known Member

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    Never knew that, thanks :up::D
     

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