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oem to titan xs spring change, length difference

Discussion in 'Anything Airgun Related' started by chefslot, Oct 9, 2014.

  1. chefslot

    chefslot Active Member

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    About to fit a new spring to my hastan 60s. The spring is quite a bit longer so from the start will have a pre-charge a lot more than standard.

    oem spring
    length: 283mm
    coils: 40
    thicknes: 3mm

    titan xs
    length: 345mm
    coils: 39
    thicknes: 3mm with coating?

    The titan is about 2 1/2 inches longer.

    Just wondering have many others needed to cut a few coils due to the titan being longer than stock to start with.

    What i really need is a jig to measure force travelled or something?

    Regards jon
     
  2. Speed

    Speed Busy Member

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    my titan spring on my 95k is quite a bit shorter than std spring,

    you will have to try it and keep nocking a coil or 2 off until you get to the desired power
     
  3. jantar

    jantar Donator

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    Years ago in my early engineering days when I thought I knew it all (seeking more unecessary power) I put a 'power' spring into my HW35. The result was the rifle, a very decent make, was rendered a crappy one that was a beast to shoot with any accuracy. I put the original spring back in and it returned to its accurate and smooth self! Nuff said.
    :confused: Once again its the 'power' thing. Its not power that counts its accuracy! This is a dodgy subject because there is more to gaining power than just changing a spring. The barrel, cylinder, piston, seal etc all play a very important part.
    I believe that it it is always better to keep the maufacturers one then tune the rifle which will have the same effect. Try reading some of the articles in the Air Gun magazines about it and the experts in them tell all there is to know on this subject. They conducted many, many tests over long periods of time before demonstrating the results and so their recommendations.
    Look at these; p73 of Airgun World Sept 2014 'Spring is Sprung', there is also an article of how best to shoot a springer. Once you read this you will see it from a different point of view as I did.
    I can copy them and post if you wish......just PM details.
    Good luck :up:
     
  4. oliver13

    oliver13 Donator

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    I've never had a Titan spring that didn't need cutting down, I believe it's designed that way so they will fit a lot of different guns - just cut it to size.
    21/2" seems a bit excessive though, it's usually only a coil or 2 oversize. When you shorten it & collapse a coil, don't breath the smoke that comes off the low friction coating, I don't know what's in it but it make some evil fumes.
    If you do it on the gas cooker make sure you've got an hour or so to ventilate the kitchen before anyone goes in it...
     
  5. cloverleaf

    cloverleaf Honorary Member

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    Ultimately you need to know the amount of recoverable energy that the original spring offers / how much is required to produce the energy you need (why are you replacing the original - gun down on muzzle energy?); then reproduce this value in the new spring by cutting it to an appropriate length. Recoverable energy is dependent on the spring rate (stiffness), pre-load and the rifle's stroke. Looking at individual factors alone (spring length for example) will get you nowhere.

    All the formulae required to calculate what you need is listed in this thread - if (like many) you don't fancy the maths, there's no way other than chopping/spacing, fitting, testing repeatedly until you get it right. Finally, I trust you have a chrono to get a handle on the gun's velocity and muzzle energy.. otherwise I'd advise that you leave well alone until you do have the ability to measure velocity ;)
     
  6. Patrick

    Patrick Donator

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    Pardon my ignorance but couldn't you just buy a Titan spring nearer the length of the original as they do numerous springs,wouldn't that be easier?
     
  7. Speed

    Speed Busy Member

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    or get a welsh willy kit, he sends a correct lenght spring
     
  8. chefslot

    chefslot Active Member

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    Cheers the spring is bent, i'm totally on the side of accuracy rather than power.

    But please send me a pm of your copy.

    The spring is the right selection for my gun.

    Yeah had a quick read of that, and get a spring of a certain length could equal the same output of a spring that is shorter depending on material and temper etc. I was just wondering if anyone has had any experience in fitting one. Great link thou. Indeed i do have a chrono, on the right side of the law me. ^^

    Cheers all.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2014
  9. Meteor62

    Meteor62 Major Poster

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    I hate Titan springs they come packaged saying they are the right spring for your gun but never are. Why should you have after spending your money cos they ain't cheap then have to cut it to the right size? It you bought a part for your car and it was wrong you would take it straight back and expect a refund. Also using a Titan uncut will make your rifle over sprung and horrible to shoot. If they can't be bothered to make the correct sizes then why we should be bothered to buy them? If I were you save yourself the hassle and get a standard spring that will be up power wise and nicer to shoot out of the packaging.
     
    Gat Man likes this.
  10. oliver13

    oliver13 Donator

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    You could just get an original from the maufacturer, but I've found with BSA at least it isn't guaranteed to be spot on.
    I get Titan springs because I think they're quality - I've never had one bent for instance, but as I said, it will need to be shortened to get it right. I feel sorry for anyone trying to get the end block on an Airsporter or Mercury with an uncut Titan in it...
     
  11. Patrick

    Patrick Donator

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    The Titan spring you've got is the correct one they list for the Hatsan Mod 60 but it's probably meant for FAC version and guns meant for the American market which are higher power ,if you put it in without shortening it your gun will almost certainly be over the limit.
     
  12. chefslot

    chefslot Active Member

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    I have changed the seal from synthetic to leather so am kind of hoping for a little less power from this. Just fitted it and it's a beast to cock. Haven't installed the trigger yet. There was a good 2 inches hanging out of the compression tube, so i would say 3-4 inches pre-load. I've also shortened the barrel a little while ago so will be looking to make something that is a round cylinder type of barrel extension to aid in cocking. My spring compressor is a crude version of this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldup2bACPcQ
     
  13. chefslot

    chefslot Active Member

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    I have now gone back to a synthetic seal, as was only getting 6 pounds with the leather seal. With the synthetic i'm at 12.4, a tad to high, do you think this will calm down or how many coils would you reccomend taking off?

    Regards
     
  14. tincanhunter

    tincanhunter Donator

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    I'm relatively new to this fettling springers lark, and I quite enjoy it in a sick sort of way. Some would argue that it is pure engineering, I would argue that it is that and more; as its not just about the right power output, its also about the delivery or application of said power, which is in my opinion equally as important. i'd rather have a smooth 10 than a snappy 11.5, anyway i'll get to the point now...

    I have recently been playing around with a drop in tuning kit for a HW99, and I found that relatively small adjustments like taking out 3mm thick power washers dropped the power by around 1/4 to 1/3 of a ft/lb. I know its not exactly apples for apples, and you are thinking about chopping the spring and haven't mentioned washers yet, but what think i'm trying to say is: make small adjustments, I know its a pain in the arse to keep stripping, chopping, building and chrono'ing, but it's not like a bad hair cut, it wont grow back!! :) start with one coil and then chrono, when you know what one coil delivers you can make an informed choice on chopping 2 at a time etc.

    let us know how you get on, i can see me doing this one day...
     
  15. chefslot

    chefslot Active Member

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    Good call mate, i think it's going to be stripped again and one coil taken off. Like you said, i too would prefer a 10.5 lbs ft rather than pushing 12. Done a few more shots and one got up to 13. Again i would prefer a constant 10.5. I think i need a few hours to shoot a good 50 pellets off to see if there is any breaking in going on first thou.

    regards
     
  16. jantar

    jantar Donator

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    Why not just shoot loads of pellets then chrono it again and see if it has settled in to a lower power level as mine did. Some do go up and some come down so its a trial and error job. If you remove coils you can't put them back.
    May have been better to stick to the original spring which was designed for the rifle and so regulated its power to a legal level.
    Just thoughts.....
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2014
  17. Meteor62

    Meteor62 Major Poster

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    The original spring in mine was giving 11.75 so I see little point in going for another type of spring. Also I find you do not need a spring compressor for the original spring as there is no pre load at all. In fact I had to coax my spring out.
     
  18. Patrick

    Patrick Donator

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    Probably best to stick to the OE spring which as Meteor said will give correct power without all that preload.If it was me I'd use an OE spring or if I was to use a Titan I'd pick one the same length or tad longer than the original spring and ignore the one they list for gun.As I said before the recommended spring probably caters for other markets where they don't have the same power restrictions.Can't see the point in paying all that money for a spring and then have to start cutting coils off and refinishing it,it should be a straight forward replacement in my opinion,considering what they cost.Apparently this happens with other models as well not just the Hatsan.Why can't they make a spring to the correct length and power?,probably because it would mean making more different springs this way they can get away with making less different springs for more models.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2014
  19. Bruno27

    Bruno27 Engaging Member

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    I have indicated on a previous thread this tool: Simulator
     
  20. davymole

    davymole Donator

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    having read the replys about spring length and aftermarket springs ect and was in stiches as in my head appeared some guy trying to remove a titan spring from an Airsporter and he has hopping around his garage like on a pogo stick my kids had years ago, (I think old age is getting to me )I found that unless I knew the spring was going to give the same/close too results as the factory one I go with weihrauch every time bar for a couple of Ox no4,s in my 35,s again its the want of more power WHY when 11 or 11,1/2lbs results in a nice rifle to use.I have just fitted a V-Mach kit for a friend in his HW99s in .177 I stripped it cleaned checked everything over that I had done as the power was only high nines or ten depending on pellet but I soon came to realize that at that level it was fine no recoil what so ever he tried the pellet on the scope ect and he soon found it was constant and bob on grouping which was more than a relief for me worried about what seem low power he was pleased are we all becoming power mad:eek:
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2014

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