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Interesting Artical in Gardian today.

Discussion in 'Anything Airgun Related' started by jolo-bolo, Jan 30, 2015.

  1. jolo-bolo

    jolo-bolo Donator

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  2. Accuspell

    Accuspell Pro Poster

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    What are you doing reading The Gaurdian - and especially Monbiot. He even takes pops at fishing.
     
  3. Daddy Dale

    Daddy Dale Donator

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    Can't believe I just read that, what a bunch of Ill considered nonsense. Why do you think we got rid of the swarms of pinnies in the first place?
     
  4. 177

    177 Donator

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    How very twee...

    In our arrogance we deem it justified to attempt the extermination of a species we ourselves introduced.

    We also choose to ignore the very obvious point of what happens to the predator population when the primary food source has been 'successfully eradicated' (population plummets due to lack of food or predator turns on other species - Pine Martens love eggs for example...).

    These articles always irritate me because they adopt the attitude that 'the rest of us' are somehow unable to see what's right in front of our faces, that the 'obvious' solution is cost free (it isn't, by a very long shot) and therefore ideal in every respect (refer back to the previous point about predator populations directly linked to available prey species) and that the author's triumphant remarks somehow contrive to spin the web of readership perfection, presenting us with a considered and solid, workable solution :rolleyes:

    pffffff...

    All predator populations peak relative to prey - so not only are we happy to condemn an entire species for simply doing what they do, we are also happy to condemn large numbers of another one once its usefulness in providing the 'ideal' solution to grey squirrels has been realised, or accept that they will be illegally culled to protect other species of commercial interest.

    IMVHO the reason solutions have failed to date is general lack of cohesion and cooperation.

    Example:

    One of my landowners asks me to hammer the grey squirrels. The neighbouring estate won't hear of it. Create a vacuum in one location and (arguably) have a greater overall population to contend with - mortality rates will reduce in litters from the neighbouring estate due to greater availability of territory and resources next door, which they will happily migrate into.


    Did I miss anything ?

    I don't pretend to have the answers but I think I have a relatively solid understanding of the problem.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2015
  5. monsta41

    monsta41 Donator

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    rabbits were brought here by the romans...grey squirrels by the victorians...
     
  6. Accuspell

    Accuspell Pro Poster

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    But Monbiot and his followers don't see the countryside as a business centre, they see it only as a pleasure garden and therefore it doesn't have to earn its keep in their ideal world......they point jibes at the 'landed gentry' (most of whom are either foreign investors or investment firms, or their owners) and suggest the country folk should simply 'manage the countryside' for a stewardship payment and remain second class citizens on minimum wage and with minimal services, while they sit in their luxury penthouse apartments and visit the countryside to escape their utopian, concrete jungle :mad:

    Now, I can see how pine martens could be used to HELP, but not replace, human intervention. What he fails to mention is the land in Ireland that he speaks is vast swathes of peat bog intertwined with forestry or woodland. Very little of it is highly productive land or that rich in game - you don't see many pheasants on your wanders in Ireland, whereas over here they are everywhere. You do also see a tremendous number of corvids in Ireland though, it is a predators paradise !
     
  7. Strathrpc

    Strathrpc Posting Addict

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  8. portugueezza

    portugueezza Well-Known Member

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    I really dislike the argument of controlling populations "naturally" by introducing predators. It is sold as a natural way, natural balance, etc, but the truth is that is no less artificial than the introduction of the invasive species in the first place.

    There is a bigger philosophical argument about the reason for existence of a variety of populations, probably easy to defend the good principles - scientifically -, but my point is about welfare.

    One thing that is forgotten by well intended people who know very little about Nature other than what they saw on TV, with Mr Badger making a cup of tea for Mr Mole. They forget that is Nature is bloody cruel!

    Prey suffer horrible death at the claw and fang of the predator. Painful...so nevermind animal welfare. On the other hand, instant death is a "gruesome thing, hunters are cruel".
     
  9. jolo-bolo

    jolo-bolo Donator

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    no it's all about grammar nazis trying to take the urine out of dyslexic people. Who are on morphine and do their best to stay focused and pass on interesting articals to debate on. If my way of writing offend your superia sensibilities please press the ignore button for me then you won't have to ever see my bad spelling and grammar again. (Please insert a sarcastic smiley face where you want it put).
     
  10. Accuspell

    Accuspell Pro Poster

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    HEY, quit with those negative vibes man!
     
  11. Fettlingmike

    Fettlingmike Donator

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    Loving this thread!! Some really interesting info in there actually. But that said it always seems to be that it never boils down to sorting the problem, just a variety of selfish people pushing their own agenda. Surely everyone involved..hunters, land owners, gamekeepers and the Eco warriors have all got good points to make and useful input, but instead waste their energy verbally bashing the "opposition"?!?!?! Just saying :D
     
  12. Gunfun

    Gunfun Engaging Member

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    This is a airgun forum, not a Spelling Bee competition, have you anything positive to add to this thread ?
     
  13. Tripleteer

    Tripleteer Donator

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    They may as well start introducing minks all over the place!!! too many do Gooders in my opinion!!!!!
     
  14. Grumpyoldman

    Grumpyoldman Very Active

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    Well i found the article very interesting and well worth a read :up: Kev considering the the financial costs to your ropes course the greys cause by chewing up equipment im not surprised you look at every article on there control . Thanks for posting
     
  15. warrenater

    warrenater Donator

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    Well that was an interesting article ! i just have to wonder why they think it is ok to re-introduce the pine martin after all he says their demise over here was due to the gamekeepers so i can not imagine they would be overjoyed to see them back ! and i have my suspicions they would be a lot more trouble than the greys are . at best just shifting the problem , mind you i don't have any answers . atb Gary.
     
  16. monsta41

    monsta41 Donator

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    so what happens when the pine martens have killed all the grey squirrels? they will start killing the reds, once they are gone then they will start on the bird population..as pine martens are well known for raiding birds nests
     
  17. Grumpyoldman

    Grumpyoldman Very Active

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    from personal experience il use Otters as an example . 10 years ago i used to trap a lot of mink . Iv caught 1 in the last 5 years . they where a common site . Otters are a relatively common now and have driven out the mink :up: Yes there have been some very stupid mistakes made such as idiots building holts close to commercial fisheries but on the whole a balance at least in my local area . One interesting fact i learned in Newzeland was that the introduced deer population became so out of control the government planned to introduce north american mountain lions in the 70s :eek: Only stopped at the last moment . would certainly have made my work in the mountains over there interesting !!!!!!
     
  18. splat

    splat Donator

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    Am I missing something here....grey squirrels are too big a problem to be controlled by us, but they can be controlled by pine martins ( which can be controlled by game keepers who succeeded in virtually eradicating them). surely if gamekeepers could manage it back then, it should still be maintainable now ???
     
  19. Accuspell

    Accuspell Pro Poster

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    Exactly - especially with the financial incentive to do so. A few shillings in the pocket tends to focus the attention, after all, it has even got Glaswegian mums-to-be to stop smoking.:D
     

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