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Question HW99s - anyone fiddled with trying to fit an HW95 cocking link and shoe ?

Discussion in 'Anything Airgun Related' started by 177, May 21, 2014.

  1. 177

    177 Donator

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    I have three HW99s's in front of me at the moment, and the same number of HW95's and an HW77 on the way. So much for thinning the numbers :rolleyes:

    One of the 99's is mine and the other two belong to friends (yes, I do have some :rolleyes: )

    Mine has started grinding on the return stroke from cocking. Sounds/feels like the flared lugs on the cocking linkage that act as a cocking shoe are the culprit :(

    Tore the gun down today and mirror polished the suspect area, greased, reassembled (yet again), problem gone, but I'm not expecting it to remain gone. I half expect that once the grease is fully dispersed and degrades through use, the metal on metal will begin again.

    Has anyone farted about (scientific term) with a standard HW80/95 cocking linkage and cocking shoe and managed to shoehorn them into the HW99s ?

    I'm going to get some bits out of my workshop tomorrow and start looking at that as an option. If I need to enlarge the cocking slot in the cylinder I'll do it.

    I know the cocking linkage is slightly shorter but there might be sufficient slack to gain the length needed by taking some of the bend out.

    I'm getting a bit narked at what is letting an otherwise solid little gun down.

    Both of the other guns I have in at the moment are creaking and groaning and they shouldn't be. One was tuned and handed over to my friend only last week and within a day it started grinding - I first suspected debris contamination but it turned out to be those pesky cocking linkage lugs again - they're slightly misaligned from one side to the other, and it seems nuts to allow something so fundamental to spoil an otherwise great little rifle :(
     
  2. andy001

    andy001 Engaging Member

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    Howdy,

    I tried fitting my hw80 breech/barrel and cocking arm today. I found the cocking arm too long! That was on the hw80 breech which is longer than the hw99's and it was without the cocking shoe, the end was bang on the start of the piston cocking slot (if that's what you call it)
    I've for the moment, made an adjustment to the hw99 cocking arm to fit the hw80 .20 barrel to my hw99. Yippee, but I need to remake the part. Make it look prettier. ;-D
    If you do find out, if the 95 cocking arm fits. That may solve my problem of remaking the part.I'd be very interested if you or anyone else has fitted it. ;-)
    Cheers
    Andy
     
  3. 177

    177 Donator

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    Well, if I get the time tomorrow I'll have at it.

    Other things are already looming on the horizon for clients though, so tomorrow may end up a bust :(

    I don't mind fabricating and customising, within reason, but if this can't be relatively easily addressed in the short term then I'm walking away from what is otherwise my favourite spring powered break barrel...
     
  4. Jackroadkill

    Jackroadkill Donator

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    Bit of a Heath Robinson bodge idea, but could you not glue a bit of PTFE on either the back of the lugs or inside the piston slot?
     
  5. andy001

    andy001 Engaging Member

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    Apparently, hw are supplying an anti galling cocking arm for the hw99.
     
  6. 177

    177 Donator

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    I'd rather look at reworking a new-type cocking shoe a link to fit, if possible.

    Any details on this ?

    Before I start in on mine and the other two I am open to options...

    I had an hour spare this morning but I had an HW95 to reassemble after working on it yesterday.

    Shoots beautifully and cocks like silk. Unfortunately it's doing 12.12 FPE with Superdomes and 12.44 with JSB Exact :(

    On the plus side the Superdomes were coming out at only 2 FPS variation over 10 shots...

    :)

    Tore the gun straight down and I will look at shaving a little off the mainspring to bring it under. Shame because it really does shoot beautifully - it's almost completely dead on firing.

    *sigh*
     
  7. thevoid

    thevoid Posting Addict

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    It may be worth asking john knibbs of chambers about the newer 95 stock mounts, they fasten into the core of breech plug via an allen key bolt and incorporate the barrel latch.
    It is a great idea to be honest, I only purchased the 95 over the 99 due to the cocking effort due to the poor geometry and galling.
     
  8. cloverleaf

    cloverleaf Super Moderator Staff Member Mod/Admin

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    I've looked at this before (think we might have discussed it via PM) and tbh I don't think there's a lot to be done with the '99 linkage. Its design is inherently flawed and the insert in the cocking linkage hasn't cured the issue (or has only cured it locally); instead moving the worst of the problem to the inside of the cylinder. I thought I was the only one to experience this problem initially, but now I'm increasingly hearing about it from others aswell.

    IMO a '95 linkage and shoe are non-starters as the linkage requires too much angularity and will foul the stock mounting "bridge" on the '99. In addition I don't think there's enough length / space on the '99s piston to accommodate the '95 cocking shoe.

    I'd have liked to have designed a revised linkage to rid the '99 of this problem once and for all, however I can't see an easy way to do so (without altering the gun to suit); and even if I did I suspect the cost would be prohibitively high compared to the alternative of buying (an inherently much-less problematic) '95 off the shelf.

    I really wanted to love the '99 - it's cheap and (problems aside) a once-overlooked underdog that actually performs a lot better than some far more expensive offerings. That said I can't see a way around the linkage issue; neither apparently can Weihrauch. Having encountered other QC issues with the gun I've now given up on the idea completely.

    Sad as it makes me to say it I wouldn't buy another and if in the same situation again would be looking at a 95ks with a short-stroked and lightened piston for a far less troublesome experience. A real shame, as the '99 was so close to being an exceptionally excellent little gun :(
     
  9. 177

    177 Donator

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    I'm stepping back and spending some time on this.

    I'm not prepared to sell the gun with a known problem so I will shelve it temporarily until I get the chance to build a part to fit, if I can.

    As mentioned above though, this would entail reworking other areas of the gun which may just not be practical.

    To be continued....
     
    Gat Man likes this.
  10. andy001

    andy001 Engaging Member

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  11. 177

    177 Donator

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    Yeah, mine already has that:

    [​IMG]

    It appears to adversely affect the inside of the cylinder on some guns, where the flared lugs at the end of the cocking link that form an integrated 'shoe' can foul the inside of the cylinder.

    I should rephrase that - I'm not saying that the anti-galling link fix doesn't work - on some examples there appear to be other factors that can produce fouling further long the 'chain'.

    I wonder if this is just one lug at a slightly different angle to the other ?
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2014
  12. thevoid

    thevoid Posting Addict

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    Yes mate, its worth pointing out that if the insert protrudes too much it forces the lug to wear against the inside of the cocking slot, my beloved HW50s has done this too and was made worse by the fact the piston skirt had been turned down to accept piston buttons, this made for a cavity for the edges of the cocking lug to pinch in, not good and its so bad that I'm going to have to make a whole new piston that will have a pick up sticking out of the piston for a custom cocking arm to push against.
     
  13. cloverleaf

    cloverleaf Super Moderator Staff Member Mod/Admin

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    The problem is related to the shonky, wonky pressed "ears" on the end of the cocking arm, but these exacerbate the problem rather than cause it. The issue is that the insert acts as a pivot; look at the angle of the frontal part of the arm and the barrel when the gun is in the fully cocked position - it's perpendicular to the cylinder and a significant amount of the load you're applying to the barrel during the stroke is acting inwards towards the cylinder. The insert acts as a pivot point, causing the ears of the cocking link to be forced outwards into hard contact with the inside of the cylinder.

    This is a design / geometry problem that (as far as I can see) isn't easily fixed..
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2014
  14. thevoid

    thevoid Posting Addict

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    the temporary fix for my 50 was to bastardise the skirt so pinch point is much less and its been fine since, I must get round to making a new piston though
     
  15. 177

    177 Donator

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    Anyone happen to know whether the cocking link and flared lugs is made from hardened steel ?

    I will test mine tomorrow to answer my own question but I thought I'd ask in case anyone already has.

    I have the germ of an idea...

    :)
     
  16. andy001

    andy001 Engaging Member

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    Did you have any luck?

    I'm getting tempted to sell my hw99 as a .22 and buy a hw95 to convert to .20.

    I think they should of made the 99 with a one piece cocking lever. It would be a so much better rifle. I've been tempted to convert mine, as I've an old lever lying around, which looks like it would fit. Converting the stock looks a pain
     
  17. thevoid

    thevoid Posting Addict

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    Weird that this thread returns given what I've done today. My old HW50 cocking geometry is largely the same as the 99, I've made a new piston today that has no slot and an external lug that screws into place once the piston is in the cylinder, I intent to take a length of 10mm round bar and make a cocking rod, the mount for the stock, where the cocking arm passes through I intend on filling with delrin with a hole through it to carry the new cocking rod.
    A bit of a work in progress but I'm hoping that the cocking force will be more linear along the cylinder and not have to fight with slot and cylinder like the current set up does.

    View attachment 97661
     
  18. thevoid

    thevoid Posting Addict

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    Right folks, the external cocking lug didn't work!
    Major surgery is on the cards.
    To get the new piston in I had to cut the cocking slot in the cylinder so its open ended, (I've added some bolts either side of the slot so trigger block is secure)
    the articulate cocking slot is just a crap idea and not at all efficient so what comes next is worth the work.
    My cylinder happens to be factory cross hatch honed so I'm going all out to keep this shooting and fix the problem for good!

    With the open ended slot I could now insert a 95 cocking shoe with the piston :) but I'm going to have to chop off the stock mounting saddle and convert to a single piece cocking arm (I'll chop down a 95 arm)
    I've two ways in mind to mount the stock, either weld on some mounting points like the 95 or drill and tap the end plug like webley used to.
     
  19. 177

    177 Donator

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    I dealt with the issue in another way - I mirror polished the lugs that form the "shoe" at the end of the cocking link and I also polished the inside of the cylinder where the lugs run, then I lubed it with Ultimox 226.

    It's as smooth as silk now on the cocking stroke, and on the return from it :)

    I'm about to shroud the barrel before selling the gun - given that I shortened the barrel by 6 inches I figure a shroud around the original barrel length ought to provide sufficient space for baffles and whatnot to provide enough moderation to be effective.

    :D
     

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