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Hw45 Premature Firing.

Discussion in 'Air Pistols' started by Richardb, Jan 24, 2021.

  1. Inca

    Inca Posting Addict

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    Good luck this time Richard, I bet you’re itching to get your hands on it.
     
  2. Richardb

    Richardb Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Inca but I have stilll got my old crossmans 1377 and 2240 to keep me occupied. Regards, richardb.
     
  3. marflow

    marflow Busy Member

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    this is a bit of a puzzle too me as i have been reading from the start
    the piston gets compressed and part number 1447 slides up in the bottom slot and hold the piston sr071 at Chambers
    why is the sear lever releasing the piston, is the sear lever spring not doing it's job holding the sear lever tall enough

    i'm assuming when you took this apart the first time you just took the power tube out and did nothing else and as i have read more and watch videos it seems straight forward so i'll keep watching

    mike in the states
     
  4. Richardb

    Richardb Well-Known Member

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    Just so marflow. Gun was shooting well when suddenly as I closed the breech gun fired without shooting pellet and from then on gun cocks in both stages but on closing as soon as breech contacts safety bar/rod it firesthen on fully closing breech trigger is cocked. The gun is with a specialist at the moment and when something sorted will let you know. Regards, richardb.
     
  5. Pugwash

    Pugwash Post apocalypse

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    Me too.
    It will definitely be interesting to see what the outcome is.
    The worst possible outcome is that at some point it gets put back together and suddenly it just works again ok but no one knows why.
    I have been there. Most of my working life as a service engineer. I have removed proven faulty parts, driven them round in my van for a few weeks and then tested them again before disposal and suddenly they work again. I thought I had a magic van for a while but it worked with more than one van and even I’m not that lucky.
     
    honkhonk likes this.
  6. DelMonte

    DelMonte Member

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    I also have a HW 45 with the same problem that i haven't been able to fix.
    Here is a little history of my pistol. I'll use the the component codes from Chambers gunspares.

    I bought it as a spares or repair around 2015/2016.
    Its original fault was that the slots on the compression tube (CY020) for the cocking levers(UL155/UL156) were worn to such an extent that upon cocking they would slip over the piston.

    The pistol could be cocked by using a gloved hand to hold the cocking levers down to prevent them slipping over the piston.
    The pistol could then be fired as normal. I bought and fitted a new compression cylinder and all was fine for a time.

    I believe it was after this next incident that the problem started.

    The screws on the saftey lever(SF058) were not original so i removed them to see if i had any that fit the gun better. While messing with the saftey i pulled the saftey bolt (SF059) out far enough that the saftey bolt spring and plunger popped out(CS486 & DP145).

    Now i was able to refit them but i had to remove the trigger bar (BK090) to get access. I may have had to remove the trigger lever (TR070) also but i can't remember.
    The only part that had any real wear on it was the sear lever (SR071) so bought a new one but no joy.
    I was reluctant to throw more at it at the time. Thought i had a bargain but was turning into a money sink so to the back of the closet it went(until now).

    The only things left to try are the trigger bar unit (BK090), the trigger bar spring (CS348) or the sear (SR013).
    Without some sign that they are either worn, bent or broken i'm still a little reluctant to throw more money at it.

    I also have no problems stripping this gun down completely to its component parts so if anyone wants any pics of anything specific please don't hesitate to ask.

    And good luck @Richardb i hope you get your gun fixed.
     
  7. Richardb

    Richardb Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the info Del Monte the difference is I suppose that mine was only five or six months old and not being skilled enough to mess with sears, triggers etc. took it to a specialist in general air guns but he seems to be struggling to solve problem . Will be contacting him again tomorrow and if still not sorted will give up for the time being due to expense (cheaper to buy a new gun). If gun fixed I will let you know what problem was. Regards, richardb.
     
  8. DelMonte

    DelMonte Member

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    Thanks @Richardb.

    Been looking into this again and forgotten how exhausting it is to try and puzzle out what's wrong with it.

    I've removed the main spring so i can look in through the cocking slots to see how the sear lever (SR071) engages the piston as i slowly pull the piston back.

    It seems that the sear lever(SR071) is only just catching on the piston when the safety rod (SF057) isn't pushing up on the sear.

    I removed the compression cylinder (CY020) and trigger bar (BK090) and held them together to see how far up the sear lever (SR071) would protrude into the piston.

    While doing this i noticed a slight bend in my trigger bar (BK090).
    You can see the gap in the pic below.


    HW45 Trigger Bar BK090.jpg

    Now i'm not sure if this could be the cause of the problem because my gun like yours was able to fire normally for a time.
    And bending the trigger bar would be extremely difficult to do accidentally if not nearly impossible.
    It's about 1.5mm thick steel folded into a U channel about 6mm in the inside. Trying to bend this while it's in the gun would cause noticeable damage. Trying to bend by hand would break my hands long before the metal would yeild.

    I do however think it could be worth mentioning to the person fixing your pistol if they haven't already found the problem. I only noticed it because i could see the light from my monitor shining through the gap.

    Although i'm not sure if the bend is a normal part of the design as i don't have another one to compare it to.
    I did see that Chambers gunspares has one for sale so i might shoot them an email and ask if they could check with a steel rule or engineers square to see if theirs is straight or has a slight bend.

    Best of luck.
     
  9. marflow

    marflow Busy Member

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  10. DelMonte

    DelMonte Member

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    Well good news first, after having a look at the link @marflow posted of the trigger bar (thanks) i decided to put it in a vice and give it a dose of the ol' tappy tap tap to straighten it. It only took a few rather gentle taps to bend it back the other way. If anyone tries this check after every tap as i actually bent it a touch too far the first time.

    And after putting the gun back together it appears to be working again in both the 1st cocking position and the 2nd position.

    Now i'm trying to figure out how it happened in the first place. Something i have noticed is there are two impact sites on the trigger which i believe is from the trigger bar slamming down when the gun fires.

    In the pic below you can see the damage to the trigger. Also the trigger is in the pulled position in the pic.

    HW45 Trigger.jpg

    Here is a link to a new trigger to compare.
    https://www.airgunspares.com/gunspares/airgun-spares/weihrauch/hw45/9160-hw45-trigger-grip.html

    If you check my previous pic of the trigger bar, at about the 16cm mark on the steel rule is where it hits the trigger.
    I am unsure if there is enough force there to bend the trigger bar even from accumulative damage after hundreds/thousands of shots otherwise this would be a more common problem.

    I'll need to put many more pellets through the gun to be sure it's fixed and i'm wondering if i should try and put something over the trigger to protect it from further impacts. Maybe a thin piece of leather or a thin strip of copper. Rubber would probably deteriorate and gum up the trigger.

    Still all in all a good result for now.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2021
  11. marflow

    marflow Busy Member

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    if it did it once it will do it again and a new bar will be needed but you have solved the question of what was wrong and you have zippers in the pistol to take it apart, maybe not
    now if RichardB can solve his but he should have the same problem his pistol was new
     
  12. Richardb

    Richardb Well-Known Member

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    Thanks all for your concern and help although mosst of it goes way over my head. Good news is Airgun doctor has got gun working again, apparently the problem was due to a damaged piston and badly worn trigger sear . I am collecting gun tomorrow so should be back in action tomorrow night shooting holes in the garage. Regards and thanks again for all your input and kind help, richardb.
     
    YepYep and DelMonte like this.
  13. bhodge

    bhodge Keyboard Hero

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    On a new pistol, I'm not convinced to be honest. Nevertheless I'll bet you're glad to be getting it back.
     
    DelMonte, Pugwash and honkhonk like this.
  14. honkhonk

    honkhonk Well-Known Member

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    Glad you got it sorted. Would be good to see the damaged parts if he didn't bin them.
    Did he keep the Ozy seal or use the PTFE?
     
  15. DelMonte

    DelMonte Member

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    That's great news @Richardb.

    Make sure you get the old parts back.

    I'm with bhodge on this. I'm a little sceptical because its a new gun and because there are 2 positions on the piston for the sear lever to engage. To have both of them damaged seems unlikely.
    Also if the slots are damaged the first position can be fixed with a decent small file the second position would need a dremel like tool.

    Here is a pic of the piston.

    HW45 Piston 1.jpg

    In the first pic you can see that the first cocking position has a lot of wear but the second position has very light wear. You can also see the line where the sear lever has rubbed against the piston.
    My gun seems to hold fine on either position (for the moment anyway).
    Here's a pic of my trigger sear just for comparison.

    HW45 Sear SR013.jpg


    I've also thought of a way that i could have bent my trigger bar while reassembling the gun.

    First the trigger would be in the reset position with the trigger bar resting on the sear.
    The sear lever would also be in the forward position meaning that it couldn't be pressed down.

    There are 2 possibilities for the next bit.

    First is if the piston had rotated in the compression cylinder blocking the slot that the sear lever rests in after the gun has been fired and the trigger reset.

    HW45 Piston 2 text.jpg

    Second is if the compression cylinder itself was rotated at an angle causing the sear lever to miss the slot.

    Now if i tried to force the cylinder down, the trigger bar being supported only by the pivet pin on one end and the sear at the other end would bend at its weakest point which i believe it did.
    HW45 Trigger Bar BK090.jpg

    I now beleive this to be the most likely cause for the trigger bar getting bent.
    Thats right all my own fault lol.

    Still i think that it is something for anyone removing the compression cylinder to take into consideration.

    There is a part of me that wants to try and replicate this and see if the trigger bar will bend, but i also kinda don't now the gun works.

    Maybe another time.
     
    bhodge and Pugwash like this.
  16. Richardb

    Richardb Well-Known Member

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    Got gun back today with replaced piston plus new seal plus sear. Gun shooting well with aussie seal (chronod using my favoured hobby pellets and shooting between 605 and 610fps about 5.7 to 5.8ft.lbs so very satisfied. All I have had to do is slight trigger adjustment. Some time in future I will reuse piston and seal but leaving well alone for the time being. Regards to all, richardb.
     
    YepYep, Inca, bhodge and 1 other person like this.
  17. honkhonk

    honkhonk Well-Known Member

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    Interesting, What is the power half cocked? You should check 8.18 - 8.2 grain to make sure it's not running hot if you're getting 600+fps with 7 grain.

    Mine seems to hate hobbys, they're too tight for the skirt to sit flush in the barrel.
     
    YepYep likes this.
  18. Richardb

    Richardb Well-Known Member

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    On half cock was 475fps Ithink., but dont use this setting much due to accuray variation. With 8.3 gram field sport pellet got 565fps (5.8ft lb.) Which is only slightly above figure of 5.6ft lb as on test card when I had half cocking problem repaired by Hull under warranty. I put slight power increase due to fitting Aussie seal and good service by air gun doctor when misfiring recently cured. Gun now smoother and more consistent with this seal. Regards,richardb.
     
  19. YepYep

    YepYep Busy Member

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    Yep, for the same reason I don't like hobby on my 45 either... They seat and shoot okay if i used a stick to seat the pellet into the breech tho...
     
  20. Pugwash

    Pugwash Post apocalypse

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    I only ever use Geccos in my 45 and my 40 and never have any problems.
    They are very accurate and never a problem to seat properly.
    And for how good they are they are not expensive either.
     
    bhodge likes this.

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