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HW100 barrel - poor internal finish, lead fouling and accuracy loss..

Discussion in 'Anything Airgun Related' started by cloverleaf, Aug 5, 2014.

  1. cloverleaf

    cloverleaf Super Moderator Staff Member Mod/Admin

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    I'm currently in the arguably lucky position of having two HW100s in my possession; one less than a year old and the other around 7yrs old.

    A common factor between both is that they suffer from a significant buildup of lead at their muzzle. Below is an image of the earlier rifle's muzzle - note the thickness of the deposits and the areas where it's been scraped away by my fiddling.. that's a substantial amount of lead!

    [​IMG]


    It cleaned up reasonably after a fair few passes with a pull-through; however after several hundred rounds the deposits are becoming apparent again. Below is a picture of the same part of the muzzle after cleaning; note the shallow radial marks in the rifling grooves and deeper radial marks on the lands:

    [​IMG]


    Certainly from my experience with the newer (.177) rifle, the crap accumulating in the barrel harms accuracy - the gun treading the fine line between what I do and do not consider acceptably accurate; a dirty barrel apparently pushing it well into the "unacceptable" category, unfortunately.

    My thoughts are (rightly or wrongly) that the internal finish of these barrels is pretty poor compared to alternatives (i.e. the Walther barrels fitted to most other guns), causing excessive abrasion of the pellet and subsequently fouling and loss of accuracy. I know the macro photos potentially emphasise flaws in the barrel, but tbh nowt looks too clever about the barrel above - radial tool marks in the bore and a pretty poorly finished / defined crown.

    I've certainly found that the Walther barrels on my Air Arms rifles suffer neither from excessive and visible fouling such as this at the muzzle, nor any appreciable accuracy degradation when not cleaned - in fact the HW100s are the first rifles I've ever seen the need to clean the barrels of regularly..

    Something else that interests me is the fact that the fouling only appears to be in the final few millimetres of the barrel - I had wondered if the choke was excessively tight, but pushing a pellet through the bore with a rod suggested that this wasn't the case.


    So, it appears that I'm left with a few choices:

    a) Put up with the issue and keep scrubbing the barrel out every few hundred rounds (hardly ideal or desirable)
    b) Polish / lap the barrel to reduce the internal defects - plausible but uncharted waters for me and could damage / enlarge the bore; potentially making problems worse
    c) Replace the barrel - all the Weihrauch barrels I've seen have been similar, so this would require a different blank machining to fit (and the associated expense)
    d) Have the last 4mm of barrel at the muzzle removed and the barrel re-crowned - perhaps worth a shot but no guarantee it will work and again could be expensive..
    e) Cut my losses and sell the fussy little b*stard


    Has anyone else experienced this level of fouling / accuracy falloff with the HW100? Has anyone had success with any of the suggestions above? Finally, does anyone know how HW make their barrels? I can understand the tool marks on the rifling lands, but those in the grooves suggest an issue with the button or mandril if they're buttoned or hammer forged.

    Tbh I've always been fascinated by barrel lapping, so I might just cut my losses and crack out the abrasives :p

    As always any thoughts much appreciated :)
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2019
    foxtrott likes this.
  2. mattyts

    mattyts Donator

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    Sell and buy another S400 because,why not? :p
     
  3. cloverleaf

    cloverleaf Super Moderator Staff Member Mod/Admin

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    Because I have too many of them already!
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2014
  4. mattyts

    mattyts Donator

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    If you can count them,you don't have enough :eek:
     
    peasemold likes this.
  5. dave goodall

    dave goodall Donator

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    I do no the rifling on a hw is more triangle shape up the lother rectangle shape clover was a great post on this subject on the theoben forum looking in to this esp the fouling caused by hw barrels in fac but scince leaving the theoben forum cant get access to the thread to copy but my thoughts are its the trangular rifleing cutting in to the pellets atvb dave g
     
  6. ratman60

    ratman60 Pro Poster

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    hello, first i must say those and all the photos you put on here are so good. have you thought to find a good lead disolver and leave in a container for a few days providing you can dismantle barrel from the action, then you can see how far down from the exit hole there is the bad area and then get cut and re crowned, dave has a good point to so if you bought a new HW barrel would the same happen. having seen members on here saying they have contacted HW rather than the importer so maybe thats another route to get advice, anything is worth a try. i am no expert like many on here only to rely on those forum members who know about air rifles, nv, torches that i and many are gratefull for help when needed.
     
  7. vitalich

    vitalich Keyboard Hero

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    With my daystates I.m using 10-20 tin pellets after another 500-700 shots to clean the barrel up and another 10 felt pellets with drop of oil to lube it,

    Haven.t had ant probs like you described.

    Or time to change your hw for a good daystate?
     
  8. rkr

    rkr Keyboard Hero

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    You could try re-crowning the barrel, to me it looks like there's a choke in there and that causes excessive lead build up in and around the imperfect crown. Smooth the crown out and see if the lead build up at the muzzle stops.
     
  9. jjones

    jjones Well-Known Member

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    Checked my 10month old carbine 177 and no build up. ~5000 pellets and never cleaned the barrel.

    Gratuitous shots
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  10. terry1001

    terry1001 Major Poster

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    If it were me I would contact Weihrauch at the factory with copies of the photos and just let them know, firmly and politely, that the finish on the bores falls well below what you expect from them.
    If you decide to try and remedy the problem then lapping lightly is probably the easy option, this would show you how extensive the poor finish is. If it's limited to a few mm at the muzzle then shortening is an option although how effective it would be is uncertain, would it cause even worse accuracy problems.
     
  11. Geordie

    Geordie Donator

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    Watching this with baited breath:eek:
     
  12. darklord

    darklord Can’t beat a tx200 at 30m

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    My has were never like that. id say Crappy finish. complain. but it depends what you consider accuracy and what hw do.
     
  13. The Robin

    The Robin Super Moderator Staff Member Mod/Admin

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    Very interesting thread, I will be following this and to see the how, where and what is done
     
  14. engraver

    engraver Keyboard Hero

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    I would imagine the choke is like a crush fit within the last inch or two, then its screw cut again putting forces on the barrel walls.

    As its rare a barrels OD is ever 100% concentric to the bore, its not surprising that after knocking these barrels out in mass production that some, and I say some, will come out with tight spots on the choke.

    Personally I wouldn't worry about it if it shoots Ok as Ive never cleaned my barrel and the accuracy it the same as It always have been that's "flippin accurate:D"

    So I cant say from personal experience HW make a consistently bad barrel, but barrels in general I keep saying this can be either good or bad.

    Some people may cause more damage than good using jags to clean their barrels so its always a risk, but I push a pellet down the barrel using barrel cleaning rod, and feel for tight spots.

    If its obvious in the last half inch I suggest a very light polish in that area, or I once saw something about a guy who rolled his ammo in some kind of fine abrasive and they shot them down the barrel to take out a micron or two from the tightspots, apparently it has mixed results Its debabtable but if you have a non shooter of a barrel you have nothing to loose I suppose.
     
  15. keithy

    keithy Keyboard Hero

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    Lapping compound wont remove those tooling marks, you will have to remove quite a lot of metal to remove them and very likely ruin the barrel, as said earlier email weirhauch and send photos. You might get a replacement barrel:rolleyes:
     
  16. Seanalf

    Seanalf Engaging Member

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    This is bloody long, it refers to rimfires, but the principles are the same. It's all to do with barrels, finishes, lapping etc and the great clean/don't clean debate. I've done over half, but it's a very long article.....

    http://www.rrdvegas.com/rimfire-cleaning.html
     
  17. mark112

    mark112 Engaging Member

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    Hi,

    I'd be tempted to carry out some kind of light lapping with something like Brasso or Autosol. I think you would have to do an awful lot of it before you effect bore size and potentially ruin it. May ease the problem even if it cannot completely eradicate all of the lead fouling. Failing that sell it and just stick with your Air Arms :)

    Mark
     
  18. dave goodall

    dave goodall Donator

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    After a bit of searching seems they make there own barrel and hans weiruach s very proud of his accomplishments esp in the usa target scene so maybe a email to him may get you what your after id of thought a replacement barrel would be in hand up to bad press which speads fast on the net ;)
     
  19. engraver

    engraver Keyboard Hero

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    If you had length to loose on a HW100 some barrels like that may actually shoot better with the choke cut off completely but that would be a last resort if lapping made no difference, but again its a risk, and you cant do it on a hw100 because you couldn't fit a silencer over the cylinder.

    The only other thing I could think of to rectify a barrel like that as to keep the length would to be to bore it out about half inch or so but then crowning it would be difficult, basically its not worth the hassle as Im sure the superpower of HW will replace a barrel if its obviously not performing.

    But If they don't want that barrel back you can give it to me, I sure wouldn't scrap it, it may end up pistol length by the time it was a shooter but Im sure it could be rectified.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2014
    foxtrott likes this.
  20. dave goodall

    dave goodall Donator

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    After a few searches came up with this info is very limited to how they make them hth


    It may be a bit faster but I don't think that matters much. It is the ream that makes the HW barrels special.
    HW barrel sales got the first big push from Steve Schulz when he won the 2002 FT US Nationals shooting LD's Simple Simon using an HW barrel.
    Since that event lots of long HW barrels have found there way onto all kinds of different makers guns.
    Guy Omitcin been doing some damage lately with his FWB P70 fitted with a Mac1 Match Barrel. I've made a half dozen examples for Steyrs 100 rifles and I know of at least that many earlier Sterys as well.
    The sales of 16MM .177's have been really brisk and have amounted to over 200 in the last year including those purchsed for the US-FT project.
    We've sold over 500 HW barreled LD pistols now with a few hundred more with Lothar Walthers.
    Lothar Walther barrels are good barrels. They are standard gear for Talon rifles and Air Arms as well. There isn't a thing wrong with them but they don't quite achieve the same level of accuracy out of extremely accurate guns. When it comes to barrel making consistency is everything. HW controls their own toolmaking process because they don't sub that out. When you've gone the extra step to have mastermachinist capability in house you can be better at controlling your production processes by staying on top of the tooling.
    Experienced machine operators running machines with always properly adjusted and manufactured tooling is where HW saves money and controls quality.
    Hans Weihrauch knows exactly what his barrels have accomplished lately and I can tell you, it makes the man very proud. I also told him that there are lots more championships to come.

    Later

    Tim
    Id say email them bad press is going to be last think there going to want
     

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