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Question Have I made a mistake buying this 2nd hand compressed air bottle?

Discussion in 'Anything Airgun Related' started by Dag, Sep 3, 2014.

  1. Dag

    Dag Pro Poster

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    Ok, so I have to admit I am an impulse buyer. However when picking up my new S400 last week I kept looking at the large bottle in the RFD's workshop.
    "What capacity is it and how much?" says I,
    "It's 15litres and £130" says he and then tells me "it's full and tested with 5years before retest"
    I ponder for a long time , well about 10seconds, and say "Ok, I'll have it"
    To cut a long story short when I get home I start reading threads etc on cylinders and re-read Matty's recent advice to me, but it's when I get to Cloverleaf's sticky on them that I begin to worry.
    Then, and only then do I start studying the stamps around the neck and find the bottle is 34 years old and has 200/300 stamped on it. Having read Clover's ditty I am now wondering:

    a) If I am filling my S400 to 190bar will a 200 bar bottle have enough in it to do the job?
    b) Is b) even a valid question if, say, I let the rifle's pressure drop to 110bar and fill it to ,say, 170bar?
    c) Given that I thought a 15litre bottle would mean I only had to fill the rifle once a year depending on usage will all the above mean it will be no better than if I had bought a 3litre 300bar bottle?
    d) Was it a really bad buy or is £130 spread over 5years reasonable even if it is a big b****r to haul about.

    The moral of this story is, of course, do your research before you buy a bottle. Anyway, I got a good deal on the rifle and trade-in and at £130 there is no way I would take it back as I went into it with my eyes open (even if they were full of cow Censored! ;) )
    All answers to the above questions most welcome. Please excuse my ignorance of PCP's and air cylinders!
    Dag
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2014
  2. sharpsman

    sharpsman Pro Poster

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    Are you sure this bottle is 34 years old,as most places would not even retest something as old as that.
     
  3. Strathrpc

    Strathrpc Keyboard Hero

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    We managed to get our lifeboat bottles retested and some of them are over 40 years old! That's why they're Inspected and then tested, if they pass the tests, then they're deemed OK!
     
  4. stevemandm

    stevemandm Honorary Member

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    it sounds like a 200 bar bottle, and if it is, it will only fill the s400 to 170 bar a couple of times mate. personally, i would bite the bullet, take it back, and p/ex it for a 7litre 300 bar bottle. you will get over 35 fills from this.
    if he is a reputable rfd, he will give you the full price back, especially when you explain that you didnt know any different
     
  5. simonc_here

    simonc_here Engaging Member

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    Assuming a few things. S400 standard, fill from 110 to 180, you will get around 18 fills from it.

    A 3ltr 300 bar, much smaller and lighter. about 30 fills.
    7ltr 300 bar ~53 fills!
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2014
  6. Dag

    Dag Pro Poster

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    Crikey, there's quite a bit of variation here but if it is only a couple of fills then my comment " I got a good deal on the rifle and trade-in and at £130 there is no way I would take it back as I went into it with my eyes open " would be a bit daft.
    I'll have to talk to him.
    Thanks
    Dag
     
  7. stevemandm

    stevemandm Honorary Member

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    yes, take it back mate, and p/ex for a 300 bar bottle - more efficient and much more portable
     
  8. sharpsman

    sharpsman Pro Poster

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    Thats good to know then as i was going to just scrap two old bottles i have here as they are marked 84 i think,a mate had said i would be wasting my time trying to get them retested as probably no one would touch them,
     
  9. Donzo

    Donzo Banned BANNED

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    Steel botles are good for a lifetime but must be tested every 5 years for land use, and 2.5 years for diving. + it all depends on the valve that is fitted.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2014
  10. stryder5

    stryder5 Donator

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    I bought an aluminium 9 litre cylinder, last tested 1985, passed all tests with flying colours.
     
  11. Samobaggins

    Samobaggins I own to many fx rifles

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    When the bottles are pressure tested they measure how much they stretch! If it's with in the limits it's 100% fine. They normally can tell you how much they stretch too.
     
  12. cloverleaf

    cloverleaf Honorary Member

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    In short yes, unfortunately it sounds like you've bought a proper turkey :(


    Excellent - I just put the same info into my (otherwise unvalidated) spreadsheet and got exactly the same value :)

    If you push the fill pressure up to 190bar the number of fills falls to 8 :eek:

    Totally agree about the 3L 300bar cylinder - £140 around here for a cylinder that's new, has a 5yr test, is smaller, lighter and will give far more fills.


    Yup - that's another good point. I suspect that (given it's age) Dag's cylinder will have a sub-surface valve; and hence will be subject to a 2.5yr test.



    As for what to do next Dag; that's a difficult one. The dealer hasn't broken the law if the cylinder was in test when sold; although he has properly had your pants down. I doubt he's obliged to take the cylinder back (and bet he was bloody glad to get rid in the first place) however if he has any conscience or values your future custom he might reconsider.. good luck ;)
     
  13. Chris.allum

    Chris.allum Donator

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    in theory , a bottle with a cert , is a bottle with a cert .... and should be as safe as any .... however youll get such a low fill count , compared to a bottle half the size rated to 300bar

    the dude in the shop has seriously fleeced you ... he should have said this barrel that weighs as much as a house will cost more than a new 3 ltr and give half the fill count ...

    not good of him
     
  14. themadspread

    themadspread Donator

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    just take it back tell him that you now know youve been well and truly done up like a kipper and put the money towards a 7lt 300 bar if he dont aggree pull him over the counter and give him a right hander wont get you your money back but you will feel a whole lot better
     
  15. Accuspell

    Accuspell Pro Poster

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    You need to be absolutely sure what was said at the time of sale. If he misrepresented a dive valve with a 5 year test, then you have every right to take it back - the rest is beside the point. If it has a surface use only valve then the test is every 5 years, if it has a dive valve with a connector screwed on it, then it HAS to be tested every 2.5 years by law - the shop does not know what use it is going to be put to after sale - you can unscrew the airgun connector and go diving with a dive vlve - but you can't with a dedicated surface use valve (with built in gauge). You have told us he told you a 5 year test...that is ONLY for a surface valve.

    Age is fine for a steel cylinder - many in use were made in the 70s, even some still being used for diving. If it has had water inside, then the life is going to be very much reduced, saltwater will ruin a cylinder in hours, because of the pressure and therefor the heat. Everyone knows that heat is a catalyst (you wiggled your test tube in the flame of a bunsen burner to add heat and speed the reaction up).

    I think you should go back to the shop forwith and suggest they sell you a proper cylinder for the job, rather than try and misrepresent a cylinder. If they refuse simply state the sale of goods act - that cylinder is unfit for purpose. How many fills did he say you would get out of it...I bet there are a couple of trips-ups you can use as misrepresentation. Be firm, get the local Trading Standards phone number before you go and put it in yourphone...show him if he is awkward and say, this is your last chance or I am phoning Trading Standards right here and now.
     
  16. Dag

    Dag Pro Poster

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    "you should go back to the shop forthwith and suggest they sell you a proper cylinder for the job"

    And that my friends is what I did. Without a quibble the RFD has taken back the 200 bar cylinder and with a few sovs passing in his direction I now have a new 4litre 300 bar cylinder with gauge and connections and am still on excellent terms with him.
    I very much appreciate all the suggestions and comments made her and have to say I honestly believe the RFD man acted in good faith. In fact he is still of the opinion that the 200 bar cylinder would have been adequate given its larger capacity and is really concerned about me using more than 200 in case I blow up my rifle.
    I think it would be fair to say the airgun side of his business is not his field and is normally left to others. Whatever, he's a very nice guy and he acted fairly and promptly.
    Lessons learnt? Dag needs to take things more slowly and to do a bit more research in this forum before opening his wallet.
    Searching after the purchase was a tad daft if I say so myself........and there's a fair few of you would no doubt agree.
    I do think I need to understand the physics of this a bit better!

    Thanks for all your comments and suggestions. All's well that ends well they say!
    Dag :eek:
     
  17. mattyts

    mattyts Donator

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    Out of interest,how much extra did you pay him for the 300 bar,4 litre?

    He's talking rubbish if he would pick the 200 bar over the 300,I couldn't even fill my Ultra with a 200 or 232 bottle :(

    Makes me wonder how much he knows if the valve,was like Mike said,one that required testing every 2.5 year and he told you test interval was every 5 year.. :rolleyes:
     
  18. simonc_here

    simonc_here Engaging Member

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    Well that's great news for you and fair play to the RFD for doing the swap without a problem.
    Just be careful opening the valve, very small amounts even if it's got a flow restrictor in it, until you get used to it.

    You don't want to prove him right!

    Simon
     
  19. Dag

    Dag Pro Poster

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    It is a Hydrotech c/w connectors and valve as per the ads. Much more easily handled and cost £194 so £64 above the price of the 15l 200 bar cylinder. I guess if one shops around it could be bought a lot cheaper but sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and go for it especially if it resolves an awkward situation.
    dag
     
  20. Accuspell

    Accuspell Pro Poster

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    That 4 litre is a special Faber cylinder that Hydrotech had made specially for them. It is the same as a 7litre extrusion, just shorter - so it is short and fat, not long and slim like a 3-litre bottle - stands up on its own and so much better for transporting, plus gives 30% more fills than a 3-litre.

    Excellent choice Dag.
     

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