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Advice Harrier se shooting low

Discussion in 'Anything Airgun Related' started by tomsteebs, Jan 14, 2014.

  1. tomsteebs

    tomsteebs Donator

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    Hi, had this harrier se .20 a week now, it was running a tiny bit hot by my chrono so shortend the large hammer spring, and this made it 11.1. Then shot it about 20 times , all was fine.
    Then drove home, went to try a silencer on It and it was amazing how quiet it was! Then I did all the exterior tests and it was running at 5.3.
    Any ideas what's going on here? Hammer spring is still a okay.

    Abt Tom
     
  2. Accuspell

    Accuspell Pro Poster

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    Have you moved to .20 from .22 by any chance?

    Was your combro set up at 15.9gn, giving you a "hot" reading from the new calibre? Something is dreadfully amiss for it bo only producing 5ft-lbs! Try putting a piece of tissue paper by the breech, see if the probe O-ring is letting air past as you shoot it. That is a common reason - and a 2 minute fix for 60p (price of a stamped address envelope to Daystate!)

    Methinks you shouldn't have done the hammer spring.
     
  3. tomsteebs

    tomsteebs Donator

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    i doubt it is the chrono, it feels like when you fire a rifle during the emptying of the cylinder in the last stages, but my scuba tank reads 190-200bar.

    it's barely giving any muzzle blast, and i couldn't feel any leakage from breech with my bare hand. i only took maybe 1/4 of a coil off!
    i've played around with my fx2000 hammer assembly as a means of reducing power and lightening the bolt with success.

    i think it is somethings to do with valves and stuff ;)

    power was also fine after doing the spring...
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2014
  4. Accuspell

    Accuspell Pro Poster

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    A couple of options:

    Is the valve stem bent, preventing proper actuation of the valve (I doubt it, because the hammer is not hitting it so hard)
    hammer should be totally free of oil, otherwise it creates drag - but not 5ft-lbs worth!
    Possibly the now too short hammer spring is jumping out of its seat on release.
    The original spring was double wound at the end, to provide a flat seating base....with a chunk off the end yours could be digging in to the seat.
    O ring between action and airtube - air not venting into the action. It would be difficult to spot this when concentrating on the firing.
    Did you chrono WITH the silencer and get 11 and then again with the silencer and get 5 - or was 11 without and 5 with= clipping badly? But you would hear that much.
    Finally, the chopping of the spring has now unbalanced the hammer to valve - so the hammer can't overcome the pressure behind the valve - check by lowering the air tube pressure to say, 110bar and fire a couple of shots - velocity should go up. Then try packing a couple of washers under the hammer spring and see if the power goes up again - if so it is new hammer spring time!
     
  5. tomsteebs

    tomsteebs Donator

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    Lots of options then,
    The silencer clipping can be ruled out.
    I flattened and compressed the end coil of the hammer spring so it was flat, I sceptical that it is coming out of it's seat, because it has about 10-15mm of preload in a 10-15mm recess.

    I think , the other options sound most likely.

    Valve stem or o ring. I'm no gunsmith but I'd be suprised if the hammer is that unbalanced.

    Maybe an expensive trip to daystate is needed, I'm sure it could do with a service anyway. The finish on the safety catch looks a little un daystate like too!

    Not sure I trust my local gunsmith

    Thankyou very much for the help, I'll keep firing it and see if the power fluctuates, shame it's at 5ftlb Cus it will take ages ! :D
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2014
  6. Accuspell

    Accuspell Pro Poster

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    Tom - don't go to Daystate unless it is under warranty....give Dave at Staffordshire Custom Rifles a ring. They will farm the work out to him in any case, he was the chief techy at Daystate for many years and is their 'go to' service agent for all the older rifle repairs - he will even make parts for old rifles that he doesn't have spares in stock for. It is about the same distance to drive - up the A50 and then A500 to Alsager turn - only go South instead of North off the A500, about 1 mile from the junction. From Leicester it isn't really any further than going through the lanes to the back of beyond at Stone!

    The other option is Cannock - Simon Atkins The Airgun Doctor. Closer and every bit as knowledgeable. He served his time at Webley & Scott and then Webley - when Steve Pope was there in the Venom workshop.

    Good luck - I bet it is something simple. It always is.

    Just thought of something. What cylinder pressure were you chroning at when you first started? Did you notice the power go up as the pressure came down through shooting it? I expect you know this, but you should always test for power at around 150bar, regardless of make and model, as this is when peak power is made in any unregulated rifle. Near enough 150bar, which is why it is where the Police will start their tests. In a regulated rifle, of course it doesn't matter, so they do the same!
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2014
  7. tomsteebs

    tomsteebs Donator

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    Hi, when I first chronoed it, it was around (from memory) about 170.
    Fortunately it looks like it's a pressure issue, shot it about 50 more times! And now at 185bar sounding louder etc... And last chrono reading was 8.5 then my chrono batteries died. :mad: Think I'll fill it to 175 ish now, didn't realise it was that sensitive to cylinder pressure, not seen that before.

    Thanks for you help, once I get some chrono batteries I'll carry on testing the power curve. But at the mo it seems that to be the issue.
    I'm sure you'll be helping me out in the future again :banghead:

    Out of interest, what pcp air rifles do you own or rate highly?
     
  8. Akita177

    Akita177 The Absolute State of Britian podcast

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    How old are the Harrier SE`s?
    Some of these old guns dont like filling over 160bar even in .177, i know someone with a Daysate Huntsman MK2 and fill a nats cok over 160bar and the poi will be very low.
     
  9. Accuspell

    Accuspell Pro Poster

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    Own:
    TWO Rapids - an original 1991 12/200 in a Tyrolean stock - it will be the cockroach of my PCP line up, as in the last to survive anything! A Rapid .22 mk1 from 1996, I am working on it for a dedicated night vision rifle, because it is so much lighter and handier than the 1996 Daystate Air Ranger, with its dedicated NV scope on the top. then the .20 Huntsman - with an Anschutz match barrel on it, it was one of only TWENTY they built (so much for Limited Editions hey!) with Theobn barrels that had to be remachined for the Daystate action.

    After that I am on the Theoben SLR98 with original Simmonds WTC scope -my classic combo. One day I will take it to one of these Classic Sporter events, if life allows me.
    Then there is the Theoben Taunus from 1996 in .20 and my ancient and battered HW77 from 1985, in .22.

    Time to have a bit of a clear out! The Air Ranger will be first up, it is one of the early regulated ones and crisp, but as you can see, a little surplus to requirements. How many rifles does one need. I will eventually allow myself to part with the Taunus and Air Ranger, then reassess the situation then!
     
  10. cloverleaf

    cloverleaf Super Moderator Staff Member Mod/Admin

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    I considered a fill pressure issue, but thought you'd probably have that covered :p

    Yes, the older Daystates (with their enormo-striker and large valve gear) are pretty sensitive to fill pressure and usually show very pronounced energy curves compared to more modern offerings. From memory I've found them to peak at around 120-130bar; giving an ideal fill of 150-160bar.

    In addition, chopping the striker spring will reduce the ideal fill pressure. For future reference you're better reducing the striker's stroke to lower the muzzle energy - will still reduce ideal fill pressure but will shorten the lock-time, rather than increasing it as will happen when chopping the spring ;)

    I feel a full chrono string coming on!
     
  11. tomsteebs

    tomsteebs Donator

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    Lol I know, I was a tad embarrassed when the power crept up after shooting it to lower the pressure. But I did try that before posting here with about 20 shots but still no difference. So in all it took about 60 odd shots from 200bar to get to where ever it is.
    Ive Not expérienced à sensativety to pressure Like that before on any of my un regged pcps, fx200 being about the same age and I just wack that to 190 odd and it shoots on zero.

    I'll do a chrono string when my batteries arrive (probably weekend if I'm not skiing :)

    I don't usually do full chrono reports, but this rifle would probably benefit from it.

    As I say, I barely adjusted the hammer spring so shouldnt have too much of a knock on effect hopefully
     
  12. Akita177

    Akita177 The Absolute State of Britian podcast

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    some of the old guns like to dump there air at a high pressure like 90bar so if you take a shot and it starts p*****g all its air done the barrel quickly cock the gun to stop it completerly emptying.

    A low fill pressure does have some plus sides like your filling bottle lasts bloody ages filling to 150bar:)
     
  13. cloverleaf

    cloverleaf Super Moderator Staff Member Mod/Admin

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    It happens to the best of us :p

    My own experiences corroborate yours with the FX - the valve gear is a much nicer design and they like a higher fill pressure / give a flatter output curve than the earlier Daystates. Definitely think you'll need a full chrono string to get the best from the rifle - IIRC my old (Mk1) Harrier gave around 40 "good" shots in .177; although that was a long time ago and I can't remember what constituted "good" back then :p

    Keep us posted as to how you get on ;)
     
  14. tomsteebs

    tomsteebs Donator

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    Haha will do, not sure if this will be a keeper or not, as really I bought it because it was .20 no other reason :).
    It cocks smooth,
    balance is great,
    Stock feels ergonomic,
    Finish is nice,

    But it's one of those rifles that simple doesn't bring you any joy when using. For some reason that I don't know, the 2000 is the only rifle that continues to keep my happy.

    These 3 have always tempted me:

    S10 mk3 bbk,
    Logun professional,
    Rapid mk1
     
  15. tomsteebs

    tomsteebs Donator

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    okay little update ;)

    ordered the wrong batteries :rolleyes: so just thought what the hell and ordered 20 from combro aswell as the pc interface so i can get some nice data graphs etc... done :up:
     
  16. tomsteebs

    tomsteebs Donator

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    here's my findings today, nearly freaked out as my chrono was reading 14.8ft lb as the pellet weight changed half way through. but i took the readings from fps to give these results.

    each reading was spaced 5 shots apart as i was interested in power curve not consistancy. (plus pressing the button and loading every shot would have taken my hours in the rain ;)

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2014
  17. mattyts

    mattyts Donator

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