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'Grey' areas?

Discussion in 'Anything Airgun Related' started by Sir Oscar, Jun 24, 2014.

  1. Sir Oscar

    Sir Oscar Donator

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    After spending the last few weeks reading the forum I keep seeing the term 'grey area' crop up.
    I'm just getting back into air gunning and I want to be fully legal when I do. 20 years ago everything seemed pretty clear cut. You'd buy your preferred rifle/pistol and use it.
    Have these grey areas come about because people who tune and tinker are trying to push the limits of the law?
    Sorry if I haven't worded this right. I'm just a bit confused why there are so many grey areas.
     
  2. Titchgamer

    Titchgamer Honorary Member

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    If you go out and buy any "off the shelf" gun it is something you will not need to worry about.
    Grey areas usualy come about from things which fall outside the scope of the law such as certain modifications.
     
  3. Sir Oscar

    Sir Oscar Donator

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    Could you give some examples of these modifications that are grey?
    As an engineer I will be tuning my rifle myself using a chronograph to stay legal, or so I thought.
     
  4. Titchgamer

    Titchgamer Honorary Member

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    If you are tuning and keeping the gun chrono'd as you go making sure that it does not rise above 12fpe with any pellet then you will be fine.
    Its when you start shortening barrels, Changing firing methods etc.

    Sadly by nature grey areas are hard to give good examples of as what applys to one gun does not apply to another and can change county to county.

    Best thing to do is if you are unsure about a specific mod either ask on here or your local FEO.
     
  5. Stevie Darling

    Stevie Darling Sexual tyrannosaurus

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    The law says your rifle has to be under 12ftlb with all commercially available pellets, which in my opinion is impossible! That would be one hoor of a pellet testing!

    Tune your rifle too the way you want it, then set the power in the low 11's with the most accurate pellet:)
     
  6. Sir Oscar

    Sir Oscar Donator

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    I like this answer. It's the simplest.
    Ask before doing anything.
    I'll be asking lots soon hopefully. :)
     
  7. Titchgamer

    Titchgamer Honorary Member

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    Always the best way mate :)
     
  8. 1961nuffield

    1961nuffield Honorary Member

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    Its my opinion that if you are a law abiding citizen, simply fitting new seals and guides, then you have little to worry about, the chrono is also a must have nowadays.

    HTH

    John
     
  9. stevemandm

    stevemandm Honorary Member

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    for me, the biggest grey area is to do with power. i believe that the 12ftlb law should be applied with your pellet of choice, and the one that you carry with you when shooting, and not any commercially made pellet. we have a couple of .177 air arms pcp's, and they shoot best with the lightweight jsb exact express. they are well within the legal limit, but would be pushing 11.8 ftlb with the heavyweight bisley magnums. i would like the power to be set to 11.6 ish with the exact express, but i know it would be fac territory with the magnums, therefore illegal. this is even tho we only use one type of pellet in them, and have no desire to change.
    as said before, the waters are further muddied, due to the fact that there are so many different pellets about, regardless of the fact that 99% of shooters stick to one pellet for their weapon. the law was obviously made by a pen pusher with no experience or knowlege of shooting.
     
  10. jantar

    jantar Donator

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    :up: Great idea but I do not think that it will be enforcable because that would entail those in authority on constant patrol with a chrono to perform instant tests on suspect weapons. The only other scenario would be if they believed it was overpowered they would be given the power to sieze until it was tested at which point it would be returned. Either way it would definitly involve a fee, that much is a foregone certainty. ;)
    I always tune my own and then chrono using the pellet I have chosen for that particular weapon. That way I stay safe and test again monthly to be certain. Why change a pellet that works and performs to your satisfaction anyway? That is the illogical part.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2014
  11. Ichabod Armacost

    Ichabod Armacost Donator

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    You can bet your arse on that! The law is also very insidious, and in my opinion, designed to make you push your air gun lower on power than it needs to be for fear of it being over powered using some weird and wonderful pellet that you have never heard of.

    This is really bad news for the critters that hunters seek to terminate, because they will be coming after them with air guns that are not really up to the job of a swift and clean kill.
     
  12. Greg1983

    Greg1983 Busy Member

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    Also can use a heavy pellet to chrono after a tune up, currently doing my gun and 2 gun shops + many of forum members have said to get the rifle shooting below the limit using heavy pellets then in turn any lighter pellets you use won't exceed the limit since the police apparently check a gun using 3 different pellet weights / types so if you set its power based on a light pellet the police may use a heavier one and go over the limit.

    Greg.
     
  13. larryking28

    larryking28 Busy Member

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    The law wont see grey areas folks,they will just see black and white.
    Okay maybe the rules aren't very clear but as long as you don't do anything that is guaranteed to attract attention then what's the problem?
    Other than the misguided VCR have the rules changed much in the last few years or is it just that people want to try and pick holes in them these days and look for potential escape clauses to justify what they have done,I don't know?
    Power wise get a chrono and make sure your rifle shoots comfortably under the legal limit.
    My HW77K does about 10.4-10.6 ft/lbs,do I notice the difference compared to the S510 that does about 11.6ft/lbs,nope
    Lighter pellets tend to go faster,heavier pellets tend to go slower so in terms of power the two tend to balance each out.
    Set the rifle up to shoot in the low 11ft/lbs area with a medium weight pellet and you should be okay.
     
  14. Ichabod Armacost

    Ichabod Armacost Donator

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    I would be hazarding a guess, but I would say that a lot of folk are a bit fed up with this silly 12fpe we are lumbered with. They are also a bit fed up with the way the law is applied, 11.8=bliss 12.01=damnation!!............come on really???
     
  15. larryking28

    larryking28 Busy Member

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    I don't disagree but a vast majority of people are probably blissfully unaware of what their rifle is doing.
    I think you will find in the eyes of the law ignorance is no defence no matter what or by how little.
    Maybe in days gone you would have got away with it but these days is it worth chancing it?
    It has been 12ft/lbs for as long as I have been into air rifles,about 30 years so it's not just like it has been lumbered on us out of the blue.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2014
  16. terry1001

    terry1001 Major Poster

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    This topic has raised several points and could be debated forever without reaching a conclusion or agreement.
    I would advise against seeking the views of a firearms enquiry officer or a police officer as to what is legal or not, in general they are ill informed and often quite ignorant of the firearms legislation and will not be able to give a definitive answer. Unfortunately the same situation prevails in most gun shops. You should also be very careful of 'answers' posted on the internet as these are often simply people repeating what they have heard elsewhere.
    The laws in this country are drafted by civil servants to suit the requirements of politicians, they may seem to be definitive in every respect but it's not until prosecutions reach the higher courts that the meaning is defined and you get what is known as case law which is then referred to in the lower courts when they make their decisions. I'm not aware of the situation regarding air gun power levels and modifications, no doubt there have been cases but I have no idea of the outcomes, if any.
    With regard to the permitted power the phrase is 'not capable of exceeding' 12 ft lbs (6 ft lbs). This is a pretty vague statement when you think about it although to the person who wrote it no doubt it seemed fine. As to what 'capable' actually means is a discussion which could go on for ever and only a case in the High Court (or higher) would give the answer to that. However the actaul value (12 or 6) is also quite interesting because, to me as a mathematician and engineer, the value of '12' could mean anything between 11.50001 and 12,4999 as it is simply rounded to a whole number.
     
  17. Sir Oscar

    Sir Oscar Donator

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    It would help everyone if we knew what pellets the police use for their testing. If we don't know that then everything is just guess work. Not ideal really.
     
  18. larryking28

    larryking28 Busy Member

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    No the answer is to know your rifle,why is it up to someone else to do testing to deem if you are legal or not?
     
  19. Ichabod Armacost

    Ichabod Armacost Donator

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    It would help everyone if the police were only allowed to use the pellet that the owner of the rifle was using when the rifle was seized.

    I see no case to answer if the shooter is using brand X pellets, and deems himself legal by the usual means. and the the police use brand Y pellets to test his rifle and tell the shooter his gun is illegal.

    If the shooter is using brand X pellets, then that is the only brand of pellet the police should be allowed to use.

    Just my very most 'umble opinion innit!
     
  20. Ichabod Armacost

    Ichabod Armacost Donator

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    Because if your rifle is seized it will be tested by someone else, innit!
     

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