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Earlyish HW77k with a difference..

Discussion in 'Gun Gallery' started by cloverleaf, Aug 15, 2017.

  1. Scott

    Scott Moderated user

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    foxtrott likes this.
  2. cloverleaf

    cloverleaf Super Moderator Staff Member Mod/Admin

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  3. Scott

    Scott Moderated user

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    No worries, sorry about that I forgot TT closes posts to non members.

    Basically a .25 77 like yours but very low on power,,
    lots of messing around eventually discovered a crack and a blister in the liner allowing air to escape as part of the problems
    the liner was removed and a new .25 one installed the gun was fettled and runs sweetly and accurately at 10.5

    Incidentally the rifle owner also tracked down Steve Harper who makes pellet sizers for both old pellet sizes and modern ones.
    but he never gave contact details for him.
     
  4. cloverleaf

    cloverleaf Super Moderator Staff Member Mod/Admin

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    Thanks Scott - now you mention it I think that's been covered previously. I'm not unduly concerned as the rifle is making reasonable energy with its original crappy internals, so I don't foresee any issues on this front tbh.

    Didn't think about contacting Steve for a pellet sizer; although tbh things are tight at the moment and it's not a priority, so really I'd be after a used one if possible :)
     
    Scott likes this.
  5. Webb22

    Webb22 Engaging Member

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    An old but interesting thread - Did you ever get anywhere with this Cloverleaf? Just wondered if you managed to getting it running to a decent standard...
     
  6. cloverleaf

    cloverleaf Super Moderator Staff Member Mod/Admin

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    Thanks - unfortunately any work on this rifle is still well down the "to do" list..
     
  7. Webb22

    Webb22 Engaging Member

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    yeah mate, i totally know what you mean! i'm just starting to munch through my backlog of projects now - you'll get there. Keep us posted, as I've after a .25 '77 and have only really come across the brass lined versions. You can easily get a pellet sizer for .243 or use marksman pellets for the best results i reckon. I have a BSA break barrel in .25 and it is also .243, but marksman work fine in it - plus they are probably the lightest .25 pellets you'll find.
     
  8. cloverleaf

    cloverleaf Super Moderator Staff Member Mod/Admin

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    Thanks :)

    The plan is to use the FTTs with a sizer, but I'm too tight to buy one new so am just keeping an eye out for a decent used one to crop up. Not in a hurry given the current state of the gun!
     
  9. cloverleaf

    cloverleaf Super Moderator Staff Member Mod/Admin

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    Looking for candidates to stuff my my new bore scope up, this had to be near the top of the list:



    A few observations FWIW:

    - The barrel has a lot of lands and grooves (I counted 34)
    - The lands are extremely wide compared to the grooves
    - The rifling twist is very fast; I worked it out at 1:10" :eek:
    - The finish on the lands is pretty rough, the grooves are nicely finished
    - There are occasional patches of fouling on the surface of the lands, which are noticeably worse near the breech

    So geometrically the barrel is quite different to most offerings with its fine grooves, fat lands and fast twist. On the assumption that the grooves are about 1/4 the width of the lands, the bore circumference and number of lands & grooves would suggest a groove width of around 0.12mm and a land width of around 0.48mm!

    I'm a little dubious of the ability of the tiny grooves to positively engage with a pellet and will try and recover a pellet at some point to see if there are any noticeable rifling marks.

    I'm wondering, on account of the tight twist if the barrel is intended to function in a similar way to the paradox / "smooth twist" efforts; i.e. with the rifling having some effect on spinning the pellet, but because of the limited engagement the rotational speed of the pellet being significantly lower than the rate of the rifling would suggest.

    I'm guessing the less-than-great finish on the lands is probably due to the barrel liner being manufactured from tube with its bore being left in the "as received" state, aside from the grooves being swaged into them. I'd have expected the interior of drawn tube to have been better finished than this, though.

    I'm also a little surprised that the bore wasn't better finished during manufacture; although I guess it might not have been as easy to have inspected it back then so perhaps Mr. Harper was unaware of the state of the finish when the barrel was made.

    The fouling is unsurprising given the relatively poor finish of the bore; I'd guess it's worse at the breech as there's more load forcing the pellet into contact with the bore here. This being the result of both its tight fit in the bore as well as the higher pressures experienced early in the firing cycle, forcing the skirt outward against the bore.

    I guess it would be relatively straightforward to polish the surface finish, although I'd be a little apprehensive given the gun's relative rarity / collectability, plus the fact that it'll never be used for anything serious.

    All that said when it has to come to bits again I'd be very tempted to give it a little tickle with some fine abrasive as I doubt it'd take a lot to clean up the bore :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2019
    foxtrott likes this.
  10. rabbitwrecker

    rabbitwrecker Needs to be Loved...

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    Had a Harper quarterbore liner job done on an HW35, back in 1981 or 1982. Worked well with green Rhino - pretty much the only ammo I could get for it back then. Fitted with a Singlepoint, it accounted for a good many feral pigeons...
     
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  11. Slipknot88

    Slipknot88 Person of interest

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    Hi,this could have been done by John ford of sportsmatch, back in the day he was my step father,he did an hw80 for me the same as this,at the same time he was doing a 77 for someone else,can't remember who it was for but it was probably one of his gc2 customers high up in the ft world at the time.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 5, 2019
  12. cloverleaf

    cloverleaf Super Moderator Staff Member Mod/Admin

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    Thanks - that's interesting; I didn't know Sportsmatch were known for these conversions too. Do you know where they sourced the barrel liners? Do you think they came from Steve Harper, someone else or perhaps were made by Sportsmatch themselves..?
     
  13. Slipknot88

    Slipknot88 Person of interest

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    John was friends with Steve harper and sourced the liners from him,there were only a few done and only once while the tooling was in place,not a regular job for sportsmatch:thumb:
     
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  14. Slipknot88

    Slipknot88 Person of interest

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    Hi, I've just spoken to Terry Doe and he can remember John doing this for someone but can't remember who,he said there was a lot going on in the up and coming ft world at that time.my guess is it was for one of his mates.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 5, 2019
  15. cloverleaf

    cloverleaf Super Moderator Staff Member Mod/Admin

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    Thanks - it's great to have some potential provenance for the rifle :)

    I hope you didn't mention me by name as I don't think I'm on TD's Chrismas card list :p
     
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  16. Slipknot88

    Slipknot88 Person of interest

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    Ha ha,no I didn't mention any names:D:thumb:
     
    cloverleaf likes this.
  17. cloverleaf

    cloverleaf Super Moderator Staff Member Mod/Admin

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    Ta - probably for the best as the mere mention might have got you struck off the Christmas card list too :p
     
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  18. foxtrott

    foxtrott Pro Poster

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    Hi nice find very interesting did you know you can tell if its 25mm internals by looking at the face of the comp tube with out stripping it.The seal bore touches the inside edge of the comp tube.
    ZwyQkC3.jpg
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2019
    cloverleaf likes this.
  19. cloverleaf

    cloverleaf Super Moderator Staff Member Mod/Admin

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    I did, but ta for mentioning it :)

    Can't remember whether I've checked this one yet, although from the DOM it should be 25mm unless anyone's been at it since!
     
    foxtrott likes this.

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