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Dry Firing PCPs re visited

Discussion in 'Anything Airgun Related' started by rajod, Mar 24, 2014.

  1. rajod

    rajod Member

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    I've recently purchased a few PCPs. A daysite and a Brocock.

    I've not seen this question answered in sufficient detail as to the why.

    We all agree that dry firing a break barrel air rifle can damage the seals due to the tremendous force. I've also seen the seals of these guns.

    But PCPs are a bit different.

    1. Dry fire with breach closed - I would say yes its ok in most guns. But I do not know for sure without knowing how they work internally.
    2. Dry fire with breach open.

    Brocock - they have a warning that doing this will eject the breach seal resulting in loss of power.
    Daysite - no such warning. Have done this with no ill effects.

    Some say the breach bolt can fly forward when fired (I have seen two different models of daysites fired and saw no such movement of the bolt. It remained stationary and just heard a pop of the shot fired with air exiting the end of the barrel and also some at the breach end. No damage. gun shoots fine.

    People at daysite said it could damage the gun but they failed to explain how. In a daysite video the owner said one could punch a hole in his hand if you fired with the breach open and had a finger in the breach. This makes it sound like the bolt would flow forward. I saw two daysites fired and saw no movement of the bolt. So I wonder if he has actually tried this or understands how it works.

    So it seems this simple question has not ever been answered adequately.

    Anyone torn a PCP down to see how they work exactly? I don't feel like tearing mine down just yet.

    The newest Daysites are going to make this a moot question. They are going to make it impossible to fire the gun with the breach open. This technology will trickle down to the other guns eventually. But the Regal (my gun) won't see it for at least 3 more years.

    When I spend over $1,000 on a pcp air rifle I would like to know exactly what can and can't be done with it. I see many people say "I think I can" etc or some people will say "just don't do it" lol that's basically the clueless people that don't have an understanding and like to answer a question with a question.
     
  2. mattyts

    mattyts Donator

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    Fire it with the breech shut,fine...fire it with a breech open/bolt back and from my limited understanding of PCP internals,this is similar to firing a springer with the barrel open,all the firing mech moves forward because you're releasing the hammer spring,which when moves forward,takes the bolt/probe assembly with it.

    Also,making it impossible to fire with a breech open will be a really crap idea..how do we de cock our PCPs?
     
  3. rajod

    rajod Member

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    Its already been done by Daysite. I don't think they thought it was a crap idea.

    Well I saw a wolf and a regal daysite fired with the bolt 1/2 way back. No such movement of the bolt was seen and no damage was done. The bolt remained stationary and just air exited the gun. Both guns shoot fine.

    I think you assume it will happen but you have not actually tried it. I've seen it done.
     
  4. SteveO

    SteveO Top Poster

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    Bolt fires forward on the r10 when trigger is pulled in open cocked position, done it a few times by accident, doesn't appear to have caused any problems on my gun.
     
  5. oliver13

    oliver13 Donator

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    I think that comment about punching a hole in a hand might have had something to do with the effect of a jet of high pressure air on human flesh?
    My Grandfather managed it when he was a kid, he put his finger over the muzzle of a unloaded airgun & split it wide open when he fired it, that was with a pre WW1 BSA underlever.
     
  6. rajod

    rajod Member

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    Is that the BSA R10? Nice looking gun.

    Well it might be if the bolt is all the way back it will shoot the bolt forward. Depending on how strong the spring is for the bolt the speed it shoots forward could be very fast. Also what stops the bolt in this situation? Is it the end of the bolt hits something inside the barrel or the back of the bolt hits the end of the breach? That area would take the impact and would be the area to be damaged.

    Maybe when the bolt is cocked but then moved forward a bit as in my case the mechanism that would push it forward does not catch it. This would result in no bolt movement.

    Areas of damage are:

    1. Breach seal - depends on gun i guess
    2. Area of impact from the forward moving bolt.

    It might just cause some extra wear n tear and not really effect the gun.
     
  7. Snipertez

    Snipertez Donator

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    I'd have thought it would depend on the layout of the pcp. The HW 100 for instance de-cocks with the side lever in the open position.
     
  8. Meteor62

    Meteor62 Major Poster

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    Didn't know you could de cock a pcp.
     
  9. Steve K

    Steve K Posting Addict

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    HW100 can be de cocked:

    Hold cocking lever back, squeeze trigger and slowly move cocking lever forward until closed, that's it de cocked.

    This is possible with certain PCP's depending on the mechanisms ;)
     
  10. Meteor62

    Meteor62 Major Poster

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    Mmm wonder if that can be done on huntsman?
     
  11. Steve K

    Steve K Posting Addict

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    It's "Daystate" mate not "Daysite"

    The Wolf can be fired cocked or un cocked so to speak as it is not a conventional action, it has an electronic solenoid operated firing mechanism, the bolt only serves to cycle the magazine, so as long as the gun is switched on, it can be dry fired continuously ;)
     
  12. mattyts

    mattyts Donator

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    I assume what will happen? the bolt will move?
     
  13. mattyts

    mattyts Donator

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    Hold the bolt back,pull the trigger and ease the bolt forward,on Ultras,you hold the MMC in.
     
  14. cloverleaf

    cloverleaf Super Moderator Staff Member Mod/Admin

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    Dry firing PCPs with the bolt closed will do them no damage.

    Most PCPs cock on bolt opening, so when the bolt or sidelever is fully rearward and the trigger is pulled the striker will pull the bolt forward with it once released. This shouldn't damage anything but won't do it much good either and achieves nowt so is best avoided.

    Some PCPs cock on closing (HW100, FX Axsor..) these will do nothing if the trigger is pulled when the bolt is fully rearwards as it's under no load since the gun is not yet cocked.

    The Daystates you mention where the rearward bolt remains stationary when the trigger is pulled and the rifle fires will be the electronic ones - in this case the bolt's only purpose is to load the pellet (it has no physical connection to the electronically-actuated striker). Again doing this shouldn't do any harm, although it results in air escape from the breech and serves no purpose. IMO not putting some sort of "bolt withdrawn" interlock on the system to prevent firing with the bolt open was an oversight by the manufacturers..

    The Brocock rifles will spit out their breech seals if fired with an open bolt - on the one hand it's a bit of a Censored design flaw, on the other you shouldn't be firing it from an open breech anyway..

    I think that just about covers it ;)
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2014
  15. rajod

    rajod Member

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    I don't think you can decock the huntsman. I have the new Regal XL 30FTlb US model and once you pull that bolt back the only way seems to be firing the gun.

    Looks like DayState is starting to put in better safety mechanisms. The new C class Wolverines make it so you can't double load a pellet (like you can in the huntsman) and if the bolt is back it can't be fired.

    Is it ok to store the gun with the bolt back? On the Brocock that is the safety, with the bolt forward there is no safty and the gun can be fired with or without a pellet. So not sure the best way to store it.
     
  16. Chippy1988

    Chippy1988 Busy Member

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    I know the s400 can be done the same way

    Atb james
     
  17. rajod

    rajod Member

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    Thanks for the great reply Cloverleaf.

    I saw my huntsman (non electronic) fired with the breach open (not by me but the range master. (yea he did a boo boo) but the bolt did not move. The only reason I can think of is it was not all the way back. It had been cocked then the bolt moved about 1/2 way back. Not to the point where it was in the barrel hole but half the pin was in the open area of the loading slot. I suppose if it were all the way back it would have shot forward and maybe punched a hole in his finger.

    On the Bocock design, how is it different from others? I mean why does its breach seal eject while others don't?

    And If I were designing a gun I would assume they would be dry fired and make provisions so it was not possible. Less returns, fewer warranty issues etc. Asking people not to do it is wishful thinking even a veteran with guns did it on mine. If he could then anyone could.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2014
  18. cloverleaf

    cloverleaf Super Moderator Staff Member Mod/Admin

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    No problem :)

    That surprises me about the Huntsman. One thing I will say (from my experience of 12ftlb rifles - not used the FAC variant) once drawn back the Huntsman bolt is returned to a partially-forward position by the spring mag indexing lug assy. It may be that this gap between the striker and partially-forward bolt lessened the bolt's forward motion when discharged, although I'd still expect it to move to an extent.

    As for the Brocock, I agree totally. While not recommended that the gun is fired with an open bolt, it would make sense to ensure that nothing can go wrong if this does happen. To my knowledge the Brocock range are the only ones that are affected by this; can't say what's different on such guns that allows this to happen, though.
     
  19. Alexdermietzel

    Alexdermietzel Keyboard Hero

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    When I had my scorpion, I accidentally fired it with the bolt open a few times. No damage was done.
     
  20. warrenater

    warrenater Donator

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    my rifles ( ranger and rapid mk2 ) can both be decocked by holding the bolt back pull on trigger and slowly move the bolt forward.
     

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