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Question Does Rain Deflect Pellets ?

Discussion in 'Anything Airgun Related' started by TouchmymonkeyUK, Aug 19, 2019.

  1. Sky

    Sky Super Moderator Staff Member Mod/Admin

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    Small birds and insects etc. will just get chopped up as they go through a jet engine - it's the bigger birds that are the problem. Most major airports use bird distress calls and other means to keep the runways clear, but it doesn't always work obviously. It is and always has been a major consideration and problem for engine designers and until someone invents a 'forcefield' that can be fitted to the intake we'll still keep getting failures from bird-strikes - hence multi-engined aircraft.

    I came close to crashing a light aircraft about ten years ago when a flock of geese flew into my path (straight out of the sun) and if it hadn't been for my years of experience that had me turn and dive the plane, I would have hit them. :eek:
     
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  2. HW100Tuning

    HW100Tuning Straight Pride

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    I know you said this tongue in cheek, but it also involves mass. So now imagine 5 billion flies all hittiing the train at the front doing 10mph ... ;)
     
  3. HW100Tuning

    HW100Tuning Straight Pride

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    Anything that is in contact with the pellet will effects it's path... even wind.

    Ask yourself, if a slight breeze can effect the path of a pellet then why wouldn't fast travelling water droplets? Water is a lot more dense than air.
     
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  4. Scott

    Scott Moderated user

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    What a hell of a mess to try and jet wash off... :D
     
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  5. StellaArtois Sr

    StellaArtois Sr Springer Whore

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    After all those years of flying Spitfires Trev, it's good to see you haven't lost your touch. Are you sure they were not Messerschmidts rather than geese. :laff:;)
    Ade :thumb:
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2019
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  6. StellaArtois Sr

    StellaArtois Sr Springer Whore

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    Getting back to the original question of whether or not raining effects the pellets I would have to say, in one way or another
    Yes it does. The last couple of days at the range the weather was somewhat mixed. At first when it was dry we zeroed in and
    everything was hunky dory. Then the heavens opened and the pellets dropped by ½ a mildot at 35 yards. Later it stopped
    and the pellets were back on aim. The following day it was raining from the start so we adjusted to the rain and no problems
    until it stopped. Then it raised by ½ a mildot again.
    Now weather (note the pun here) or not it was the rain affecting the pellets, or the atmospheric conditions being more dense
    or some other contributing factor I do not know, but I do know it caused a drop.
    On very rare occasions I have seen a splash as a .22 pellet has struck a drop, but if it affected it's path by a lot if any I will never know.
    Ade :thumb:
     
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  7. Nobby

    Nobby Posting Addict

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    It's widely agreed that the biggest size a raindrop can accumulate to is 5mm across, and it's not spherical nor is it teardrop shaped, it's more like a tiny pumpkin. At that size it has about a tenth of the mass of a 177 pellet. Typical raindrop sizes are more in the range of 1.5 to 2.0mm across. That's about a twentieth part of a 5mm drop. A ratio of 200 to 1, now, in favour of the pellet.

    When it's bucketing down we get big drops and as you can see from the above, big drops carry vastly more water than small ones, so you don't need a huge number of drops to make a fair depth of water on the ground. On the other hand, a fog consists of countless millions of tiny droplets that are virtually suspended, so the ground is barely moist.

    The way I see it, the chance of hitting a very small droplet in foggy conditions is high, but the consequence is minor. The chance of hitting a droplet in a thunderstorm is orders of magnitude less - and indeed I would have run for shelter rather than carry on shooting - but the consequence would be greater as the big drop presents the pellet with more of a challenge (!)

    In practice what I have found when shooting long targets in FT competitions in the winter, is that the shots tend to go low when the relative humidity is approaching 100 percent. We don't get that kind of relative humidity in hot weather.
     
  8. Sky

    Sky Super Moderator Staff Member Mod/Admin

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    Here's me and a mate escorting a captured ME109 (I wish) ;):

    _TJP2763.jpg
     
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  9. Guloluseus

    Guloluseus Ultimate Gun Showroom!

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    Can rain affect pellets? Oh, most definitely! So can hot days, cold days, damp days, windy days, high air pressure days, low air pressure days, shooting near water, shooting over water, shooting up, shooting down, shooting prone, shooting standing, and (apparently) shooting on a mat the wrong width :)

    Any time that conditions change, it will affect pellet flight. Whether its enough to actually make a difference is moot, but at times it can, others it cant.

    Right... here we go :)
    Average housefly weighs about 12mg, or 0.000 012KG. average flying speed around 7km/h, or about 1.9444 (call it 2) m/sec.

    train average weight (passenger, UK) is around 150-200 tonnes, or 200 000kg.
    average speed on a suburban line = 60km/h, or 16m/sec.

    energy is calculated as 1/2*m*v*v, so

    fly energy=1/2*0.000 012*2*2=0.000 024 J

    train energy=1/2*200 000*16*16=25 600 000 J

    as the fly is travelling toward the train, it will have negative energy if we assume the train is moving in a positive direction, as velocity is a vector quantity, unlike speed, which is scalar.
    When the fly hits the train, conservation of momentum means that the total energy afterwards will be the same as before.

    therefore the total energy in the system before collision is 25 600 000 + (-0.000.024)=24 599 999.76J.

    as energy after must be the same, it will result in movement of the combined systems (the train and the fly) in a positive direction (i.e the direction of the train, as established previously)

    However as the train now weighs more (weight of fly) its speed will decrease.
    1/2*m*v*v=E,

    system mass is 200 000+0.000 012 = 200 000.000 012
    which rearranged gives

    v=sqr root(2E/m) or

    v=sqr rt (2*24 599 999.76/200 000.000 012) = 15.684m/s

    If you want to stop the train, you would need a stream of flies hitting the train one after the other.
    Assuming they all fly at the same speed, then you would need 200 000/0.000 012 = 16 666 666 666 or 1.6*10^10 flies! This however does not account for the extra train mass where the flies are stacking up, but its close enough.
    If you want to try it, feel free, as the number of flies you need is about the same as number of stars in the galaxy.
    On th ebright side, you can catch a pair of flies, and have them breed. Lifecycle is around 6 days, with egg laying generall yon day 4 or 5, with up to 120 eggs. assuming they all survive, you can have you flies in about 3 months.

    all you have to do then is find an air gun that can shoot flies out th ebarrel with an endless belt fed oadr and a couple of compressors working full time to keep it topped up. easy!
     
  10. Sky

    Sky Super Moderator Staff Member Mod/Admin

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    Haha! Nicely done sir. :D :laff: :claping:
     
  11. bucketboy

    bucketboy Keyboard Hero

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    So.....



    Is that a yes it is possible?


    :D
    Bb
     
  12. Diawl Bach

    Diawl Bach Active Member

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    I believe that your calculations of a fly hitting a train are completely wrong for the following reason:

    Firstly you've made a wrong assumption about the conservation of kinetic energy - in the example the fly and the train end up as one mass travelling together, this is therefore an inelastic collision.
    In an inelastic collision momentum is conserved but not kinetic energy. If you want to correct your calculations you'd need to re-address them from a momentum stand point. i.e m1v1 + m2v2 = (m1 + m2).U

    A big clue that you're off the mark is the final velocity calculated for the train (and squashed fly) - it started out at 16m/s and now is 15.684m/s, i.e. a change of 2% from one fly hitting it - this is clearly wrong.

    James (beginner airgunner, but full time physicist)

    Incidentally, the velocity I get post collision is 15.99999999892m/s
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2019
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  13. Nobby

    Nobby Posting Addict

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    You'd need a bluddy big chrono for a train....
     
  14. Wewekokowe

    Wewekokowe Engaging Member

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    Definitely yes will increase the dispersion

    Just like if you hit tall hair thin grass near the muzzle with the pathetic sub12... it completely messes up the poi dowrange.

    At high speed water acts like concrete, many little little hits will mess with the pellet trajectory
    Completely unpredictable.

    You will not shoot the tightest of groups. But I would not blame a miss on the rain
     
  15. Guloluseus

    Guloluseus Ultimate Gun Showroom!

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    been a long., long time since I used this, but generally people read the first 3 lines and give up :laff::laff:

    I knew it was wrong when I got further don, but just wasnt worth the effort of going back and changing it :0
     
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  16. TORNADOS7

    TORNADOS7 Pro Poster

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    Yes 'it does' if it's raining hard enough... :thumb:
     
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  17. Bunny-on-Bunny

    Bunny-on-Bunny Engaging Member

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    Then why bother posting?
     
  18. Bunny-on-Bunny

    Bunny-on-Bunny Engaging Member

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    Or a 't' gauge fired from a 4-10.... :roflmao:

    't' gauge is 3mm between flanges btw
     
  19. Guloluseus

    Guloluseus Ultimate Gun Showroom!

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    Because a) made the mistake and didnt realise till afterwards
    b) too much effort to go back
    c) Someone else gets to correct it
    d) find out if anyone actually read it!
     
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