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Der 1984 HW77k, .177, Mit Factory Walnut Stock

Discussion in 'Gun Gallery' started by cloverleaf, Sep 25, 2013.

  1. dave ratz

    dave ratz Posting Addict

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    HW Date

    This list john Right guys,

    I found this list on the web and thought it would interest some of you.

    I dont know how accurate it is or if it is official but here it is anyway.

    Maybe those that know the true age of their own rifle could shed some light as to wether it is acurate or not.

    First HW rifle produced: 1951
    5100 Manufactured 1955
    5138 Manufactured 1955
    31151 Manufactured 1955
    44485 Manufactured 1956
    51322 Manufactured 1956
    58446 Manufactured 1957
    72243 manufactured 1959
    76244 Manufactured 1960
    99551 Delivered 1961
    120662 Manufactured 1962
    142447 Manufactured 1964
    149423 Manufactured 1965
    195863 Manufactured 1965
    200000 manufactured 1966
    241065 Manufactured 1966
    395231 Manufactured 1968
    296000 Manufactured 1969
    309345 Manufactured 1969
    322960 Manufactured 1969
    332966 Manufactured 1969
    333015 Manufactured 1969
    333219 Manufactured 1970
    346900 Manufactured 1970
    357053 Manufactured 1970
    373816 Manufactured 1970
    375788 Manufactured 1970
    400000 Manufactured 1972
    401391 Manufactured 1972
    423452 Manufactured 1972
    469655 Manufactured 1973
    480574 Manufactured 1973
    496842 Manufactured 1973
    512990 Manufactured 1974
    583245 Manufactured 1975
    600000 Manufactured 1976
    612502 Manufactured 1976
    623997 Manufactured 1976
    624554 Manufactured 1976
    670138 Manufactured 1977
    671143 Manufactured 1977
    702045 Manufactured 1979
    741394 Manufactured 1979
    778058 Manufactured 1980
    777006 new in 1980
    785538 Manufactured 1980
    800000 Manufactured 1980
    843636 HW35 from leather to nylon piston seal 1980
    890268 Manufactured 1980
    902189 Manufactured 1981
    902315 Manufactured 1981
    926011 Manufactured 1983
    940000 new in 1985
    943799 bought new 1986
    1000000 manufactured 1983.
    1000375 manufactured 1983
    1001845 manufactured 1983
    1003486 was delivered in 1984
    1003516 Bought new 1984
    1003582 was delivered in 1984
    1003986 manufactured 1984
    1007970 manufactured 1984
    1011026 was delivered in 1984
    1011108 was delivered in 1984
    1016650 was delivered in 1985
    1016823 manufactured 1985
    1023310 manufactured 1985
    1024914 new in 1986
    1032802 purchased new 1986
    1035801 1987
    1036521 was delivered in 1987
    1036528 was delivered in 1987
    1040548 new in 1987
    1041261 was delivered in 1987
    1048169 1988
    1066409 was delivered in 1987
    1089152 Bought new Sep 1987
    1099881 was delivered in 1988
    1139541 was delivered in 1988
    1139761 purchased new 1988
    1233526 was delivered in 1991
    1531173 2001
    1162971 new in 1988
    1178259 born 1989
    1181401 was delivered in 1989
    1181555 was delivered in 1989
    1181588 was delivered in 1989
    1182289 was delivered in 1989
    1182580 manufactured 1990
    1183140 bought new in 1990
    1186081 manufactured 1990
    1188451 was delivered in 1990
    1195375 new in 1992
    1288125 was delivered in 1993
    1288752 manufactured 1993
    1289991 manufactured 1993
    1302969 manufactured 1993
    1364279 was delivered in 1994
    1370364 produced in 1995
    1446049 HW77/97 switch from 25mm to 26mm cylinder
    1459697 was delivered 1998
    1538821 bought new in 2001
    1551576 was delivered in 2001
    1576934 was delivered in 2002
    1606912 2003
    1616583 produced in 2004
    1634135 2004
    1653441 Delivered 2005
    1687223 was delivered in 2006
    1690371 2006
    1693047 new in Apr 2007
    17320** Sep 2010#
    1756120 2008
    1767276 Bought Dec2010
    1773086 Delivered 2009
    1790356 Oct 2010
    1802359 2010
    1819808 new in Aug 2011
    1831972 Delivered 2011
    1832538 Nov 2011
    1834705 Bought Jan 2013
    1837081 2011
    18560** Jul 2012
    1856544 Sep 2012
    1856662 Sept 2012
    1856877 Delivered 2012
    1867785 2012
    1867893 Delivered Dec 2012
    1875984 Bought Jan 2013
    1878587 Bought Feb 2013
    19045** 2005
    1906032 2007
    1907034 HW100 Full length changed to QF on 10/10/06
    1909005 2007
    1913451 Aug 2009
    1914346 Manufactured Aug 2008
    19178** Sep 2009
    1918940 May 2010
    1927208 Jun 2012
    19308** Sep 2012
    1930956 Sep 2012
    1932093 Bought Jan 2013
    1932998 Bought Feb 2013
    1933020 Feb 2013
    1933524 Bought 2013
    1934822 Bought Jun 2013
    ATB Dave
     
  2. johnbaz

    johnbaz Big Poster

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    That's the one Dave:up:

    I think three of mt HWs are in among those, the others haven't been confirmed by HW as yet (Not sent the email!)..


    Cheers, John :)
     
  3. cloverleaf

    cloverleaf Super Moderator Staff Member Mod/Admin

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    Thanks :)

    Yours doesn't look too shabby either - evidently in much nicer nick than mine and it must be one of the earliest ones about.. certainly a very nice example :up:


    Same here.. I'm hoping they'll supply some meaningful information. I'm sure the stock didn't happen by accident; it could have been part of a short production run for the open market that was later binned, something only offered to the domestic market for a short time, a special of some sort or a one-off for a member of HW management.. You make a good point that (in principal) it would only be a case of stuffing a different blank in the stock making machine - hardly an expensive or time-consuming exercise if required.

    I had hoped that it might have been a really early one used in the promotion of the HW77 upon release, although the serial places it maybe a year into production so that's probably not the case. I do have a load of old AGW mags from the mid '80s I plan of rifling through chasing answers / info, but I've yet to summon up the botheration to drag them out of the chest they're buried in :p


    Thanks - I'm still really chuffed at getting hold of it :)

    They didn't change the piston size until around 1996 and there seem to be plenty of serviceable examples around from this era (by comparison how many Webleys or BSAs from the same period have survived this long?). I'd definitely hold out for a 25mm version - the swept volume appears just right for our legal limit and the total dynamic mass flying about inside (piston assy and half spring mass) is about 20% less in the earlier guns, which has to bode well for a refined firing cycle with minimal recoil.

    Good luck sorting one - I firmly believe the early '77 has to be one of the top three 12ft.lb spring-piston guns ever produced and I doubt you'll regret it :up:


    I'm not sure.. I can weigh it but given the natural variation in both timbers I'm not sure this would offer the definitive answer you're after. Next time I have the stock off I'll try and remember to weigh it; however I don't personally require any further convincing :)


    As an aside I've noticed new HWs have now rolled over the 2000000 serial mark, although there's been no fanfare or special editions to commemorate 2 million guns. That said, I suspect the 190XXXX numbers have been reserved en block for the HW100, so perhaps they've not actually got to 2m quite yet..
     
  4. johnbaz

    johnbaz Big Poster

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    Err, Quite a few i'd imagine :up: (And earlier! ;):D)

    l3WGvOs.jpg

    6SX0h7h.jpg

    FZCRzbi.jpg

    zkAW0YK.png

    ZluZMtb.jpg


    Sorry CloverLeaf! I just couldn't resist the cheap shot :p


    John :)
     
  5. cloverleaf

    cloverleaf Super Moderator Staff Member Mod/Admin

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    lol - in your house maybe, on the open market not so much from my experience. A fine collection you have there :cool:
     
  6. dave1962

    dave1962 Posting Addict

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    A nice find and few and far between in walnut lucky bloke.
     
  7. cloverleaf

    cloverleaf Super Moderator Staff Member Mod/Admin

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    Thanks :)


    I got a response from Weihrauch earlier in reply to my email request for some information. Not as detailed as I'd hoped, but about what I was expecting tbh:

    So the one small gem of information is that the stocks were offered "in the '80s".. not hugely informative but I appreciate their reply none the less :)

    In other news rumours of Steve Pope's incapacity appear to have been grossly exaggerated; the lead time on V-mach kits being around a week according to the man himself.. so one of these will be ordered soon.

    The '77 is now fitted with a nice period Rhino 4x32 'scope on a one-piece low Sportsmatch mount; however I've not used it much as it makes all the wrong noises during cocking and firing :p
     
  8. ken1989

    ken1989 Engaging Member

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    very nice.
     
  9. cloverleaf

    cloverleaf Super Moderator Staff Member Mod/Admin

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    Not much to report; progress is slow with sourcing the tuning kit and I keep thinking about starting on the stock..

    I did take a few pics with the new 'scope fitted - it's a Rhino 4x32 dating from the early-mid '80s I think. it's not mint but presentable and fitted with an (almost) period-tastic one-piece low mount suits the low comb height of the rifle nicely :)

    I've had a few more shots and it still shoots like a bag of nails, although grouping is reasonably promising.

    SMALL_IMG_4281a.jpg

    SMALL_IMG_4282a.jpg

    :cool:
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2017
  10. lone wolf

    lone wolf Pro Poster

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    a great read throughout mate and what a nice rifle!

    im really growing fond of the old springers and aspire to own a few in mind, then johnbaz endless collection keeps popping up and im like ahhh i want all them now! lol

    the 77 looks well with the scope ontop:up:

    looking forward to the tuning upgrades as they happen,thanks for shearing mate!

    gaz
     
  11. JD

    JD Donator

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    Suprised your putting up with the firing cycle like that Cloverleaf.

    A strip down, deburr,polish and relube will see things improve the firing cycle, plus the 77 will be ready to slide in a performance spring and guides, without any further work to it.

    If your getting bored of it already, you could alway point it in my direction. ; )
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 11, 2017
  12. cloverleaf

    cloverleaf Super Moderator Staff Member Mod/Admin

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    Thanks :)

    I definitely think that many of the older springers are better than their newer counterparts - to me the "golden age" appears to be mid '80s to mid '90s.

    It certainly looks like johnbaz has it sewn up as far as old springers go :) Thankfully my tastes are less broad and more modern than his; so I've hopefully got a smaller shopping list :D

    If you're after something classic you could certainly do a lot worse than an old '77!


    Well, it's only because I can't really do owt better at the moment. I'm half tempted to pull the gun to bits and install and new spring and guide as a stop gap; although using standard parts I suspect it'll still be somewhat un-splendid to use (and will obviously add cost on top of the eventual tuning kit).

    Good point about the polish, lube etc though - didn't consider doing it now as being preparatory work for later. Maybe I'll bang a few "possible" springs into the magic spreadsheet later to see if I have anything suitable lying about. If I can find one and a suitable guide I might stick them in tomorrow :)

    Thanks for your generous offer, but I'm afraid this rifle won't be going anywhere for a long time ;)
     
  13. JD

    JD Donator

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    You under estimate the 77 Cloverleaf, a basic spit n polish using just the standard parts see's great things from a 77.

    Trust me I'm a recovering 77 addict and have tuned more than a few in my time.

    I would add a piston sleeve to a basic tune up though.
     
    sharpsman likes this.
  14. Jimsiss

    Jimsiss Engaging Member

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    So far I've only mildly tuned a HW80 and found out after hearing lots of hype about Titan XS springs that they aren't that good.

    I made up a spring guide and top hat out of delrin on my lathe. With the Titan spring it was quite rough to shoot but had fairly consistent FPS. Swapped back to the standard spring as no matter what I did it was overpowered and I didn't want to collapse a coil or two. With the old weihrauch spring it was a lot smoother and the Delrin guides helped knock the recoil down a lot.

    Also on another point, Titan XS springs for the HW80 are huge, around a couple of inches too long to fit in the cylinder and can't be compressed by hand. I had ordered one for a HW35 that I'm working on (similar guns, 35 is a shorter version of the 80) and that was the one I used in the 80 as it was only a fraction longer than the standard HW80 spring, still managed to make 13ft/lb with standard internals!

    I'd hate to think what the Titan XS spring for the HW80 would make if I could have got it in there, or how big the FAC rated spring would be.

    So to summarise get a tuning top hat and spring guide in there bare minimum, not had a V-Mach kit but heard good things about them.
     
  15. cloverleaf

    cloverleaf Super Moderator Staff Member Mod/Admin

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    Ta - I may well be underestimating the capability of early, standard '77s... sadly I've got a pretty good grasp of what the crack is at the moment and it doesn't look good from this perspective - from it's behaviour the original spring in mine is clearly warped and buckled (fair enough really, given it's length and age), and it will of course have the nasty pressed steel guide fitted. I'm happy to use newer OEM bits, however the springs coming from Weihrauch at the moment are crap - a poor fit on the guide and noticeably on the wonk :(

    As much as I'd like to stick with original bits, sadly it looks like I'm going to have to go to a tuning kit to get the best from the rifle.


    Thanks for the info. In the past I've generally had no complaints about the quality of Titan springs; but agree that they always need cutting down to fit 12ft.lb rifles properly. In addition none of their offerings fit the HW spring guide well, and I'm not spending the best part of £30 on a set of guides from Knibbs.. so it looks like Titan are out. I think I'll be going for Vmach bits; it's just a matter of time and how far I go - currently thinking spring, guide, top hat and piston sleeve at the moment :)
     
  16. Jimsiss

    Jimsiss Engaging Member

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    The prices for guides are quite expensive, I spent £40 on 3m of delrin and a couple of hours trimming the delrin to size on my lathe. So if I had the quite and top hat I made to copy I could do it in a fraction of the time.
     
  17. cloverleaf

    cloverleaf Super Moderator Staff Member Mod/Admin

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    Good work - I'd be doing the same if I had the space to put a (small) lathe :(


    Today in the absence of anything better to do, I stripped the '77. The plan was to clean, polish, lube and reassemble with the original bits to see what sort of difference this made to energy output. If this went alright I might sling in a replacement spring and guide in an attempt to make it more refined in use; until I can get my hands on a tuning kit.

    I chrono'd the gun as a reference before starting. It had fallen from the 11.3ish it produce when I got it to around 10.7ft.lb. The first shot was omitted as it left the muzzle at north of 1000ft/s - obviously as a result of dieselling; possibly with oil that had been applied to the breech seal.

    There were no really nasty surprises during stripping; all fixings and pins came out with no trouble and the end plug came out obligingly after a few taps from a mallet on the end of a piece of 10mm ally strip inserted into the trigger aperture.

    The first problem was that the compression cylinder was reluctant to come past the start of the end plug threads at the rear of the cylinder; presumably because the threads were poorly finished and projecting into the cylinder.. after some work cleaning out any obvious swarf with a pick, with little gentle coaxing the cylinder came out - albeit with some light scratches along it in places. Using these witness marks I found the rest of the intrusions into the cylinder and removed them as best as possible with a jeweler's file and pick; allowing the comp. tube to slide easily into the main cylinder.

    Below are the spring, guide, piston and comp. tube as they came out of the gun. The spring is fapping enormous; 309mm long, 3.0mm wire, 37 active coils and a 20.8mm OD. This gave around 95mm or preload; which (while expected) gave me a bit of a shock when the end block came off :p

    [​IMG]


    Everything was covered in the usual yellow lube.. it was quite mobile in places, while in others formed a very tacky surface that would pick up on the skin if running a finger over the surface of the piston or comp. tube..

    [​IMG]


    The finish on the front of the comp. cylinder was crap and the breech seal looked like it had seen better days, although it came out easily and was still very elastic.

    [​IMG]


    Similarly, while discoloured the piston seal was still flexible enough to be removed from the piston with relative ease.

    [​IMG]


    The compression cylinder had suffered some light corrosion at the loading port, and was generally covered in light scratches from use..

    [​IMG]


    The comp. tube and piston were both cleaned with degreaser to get rid of the sticky remnants of the original lube. The tube was polished with well-used 600 grit wet and dry then Autosol. It's come out well; not mirror-finished but it looks nicely original. Some of the marks caused by the action block threads have not completely been removed, but they're not visible and I'd rather retain the OD of the tube than try and polish them out.

    [​IMG]


    The breech seal was replaced with a new one:

    [​IMG]


    The piston seal was reused:

    [​IMG]


    The end of the freshly-cleaned piston:

    [​IMG]


    Seal refitted:

    [​IMG]


    The end of the comp. tube after a bit of a clean..

    [​IMG]


    ..and a new breech seal:

    [​IMG]


    The gun went back together with decent lube. One thing that was immediately apparent was that the piston seal was now extremely tight in the comp. tube bore. It was tight before (although I was attributing some of the "sticktion" to the dried lube), however this seemed much worse. I'm not sure what might have caused it; other than the seal swelling perhaps for some reason - solvent absorption perhaps..?

    Given that the gun will be getting a new V-mach kit in the near future, I decided against a new piston seal (the kit will contain one) and tested it anyway. The gun was now producing a massive 7ft.lb.. presumably on account of the piston seal (assuming it has got worse since the gun was stripped). It's also no surprise that since I reused the original, decidedly S-shaped spring, along with it's sloppy guide (the only reason it stays in place is because of the kinks in the spring), the gun still shoots like a bag of nails. On top of that my strip and re-lube has been rewarded by a drop in muzzle energy of around 30%.

    I also noticed after testing that the shonky, sheared edges of the loading port in the main cylinder are sharp on their underside and have been scratching my freshly polished compression tube.. I could dress them down with a file, but then they'd need to be re-blued; which I can't really achieve locally (and don't want to have the whole gun done). In an effort to dress down the sharp edges I ran over those at the rear of the port with the shank of a large punch; this proved difficult at the front though.

    I also noticed that the muzzle latch assy is a bit loose too :mad:

    Since I don't want to sully a new piston seal the gun will remain in one piece until the V-mach kit arrives; which I hope will solve all my woes. In the meantime, the gun has been banished to the cupboard in disgrace :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2019
  18. Jimsiss

    Jimsiss Engaging Member

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    I didn't use a new piston or breech seal first time on the HW80 I did, power was really low, put new seals in and it worked great (piston seal looked good but was knackered, you can't tell by looking if it's any good unfortunately).
     
  19. Kevin68

    Kevin68 Engaging Member

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    Hi what a lovely looking stock which accompanies the HW77 action, it all looks great, hope she shoots as good as she looks.
    Atb
    kevin68:up:
     
  20. cloverleaf

    cloverleaf Super Moderator Staff Member Mod/Admin

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    Today I finally got around to fitting the V-Mach kit to the ’77 :cool:

    For those interested in fitting a kit themselves, mine came with the following contents (apologies for the lack of pics – I was more interested in getting the gun together).

    • 1x Pre-lubed mainspring
    • 1x Spring guide (black synthetic body, BZP steel washer, fitted to spring)
    • 1x Top hat (black synthetic, fitted to spring)
    • 1x Piston liner / spring sleeve (steel, fitted to spring)
    • 1x Mainspring spacer, 4.3mm thick (black synthetic)
    • 5x BSP piston weights / washers, 1.3mm thick (BZP steel)
    • 1x Small bottle of oil
    • 1x Small tub of grease
    The gun was stripped and the first port of call was to clean up the shonky rough edges on the inside of the loading port that had been responsible for scratching my freshly-polished compression cylinder some weeks ago.

    The port is apparently pressed out at the factory; leaving a rough, sheared surface behind with numerous sharp edges. Had the gun been going for a re-blue I’d have cleaned these faces up too; since it wasn’t, a fine rounded Jeweller’s file and 400 grit wet and dry paper were used to take the sharp edges off the inside of the port only and retain the majority of the existing finish.

    The inside of the cylinder was thoroughly cleaned of debris and the compression cylinder again externally polished with Autosol to remove the scratches from last time’s escapade; before being given a thorough clean.

    I removed a few sharp edges from the slot in the piston, however again left the sheared surfaces intact in the interest of originality, since they appeared to have worn very little in use anyway.

    The slightly loose muzzle assy was centralised (as best as possible) and secured with thread lock – time will tell if this approach is sufficient to keep it in place.

    The old seal was coaxed off the end of the piston (aided by soaking in boiling water for five minutes), the piston thoroughly cleaned and the new V-Mach item fitted with a thin smear of grease on the end of the piston. This required the seal to be held front-down against a flat surface and the piston forced down on top of it under my (not inconsiderable) body weight.

    The difference between the old piston seal and new V-Mach item can be seen below – the gun was only producing 7ftlb prior to stripping and I concur with those of you who suggested that this might have been a result of the hard and crusty piston seal.

    SMALL_IMG_4684a.jpg


    The piston with the new seal fitted:

    SMALL_IMG_4685a.jpg

    SMALL_IMG_4687a.jpg


    A smear of moly was applied to the piston head and a little oil to the rest of the piston body before insertion into the compression tube. This was then coated in moly and fitted to the gun; followed by the under-lever.

    The V-Mach spring is significantly shorter (227mm v. 309mm) and stiffer (8.2N/mm v. 3.8N/mm) than the original item:

    SMALL_IMG_4688a.jpg


    The new spring is a good sliding fit on its guide, the grease already present is white in colour and extremely sticky and viscous. I had my reservations but fitted the spring as intended, figuring that I could always de-grease it later as necessary. The spring was fitted with no spacers or weights, and the spring sleeve was left out as they’re against my religion :p

    With all the internal bits in place the rear face of the guide sat just inside the rear face of the gun’s cylinder; giving around 16.5mm of preload when the cylinder end block was refitted. The rest of the gun was assembled and a few shots were chucked over the chronograph.

    The first major difference to be noticed was the cocking stroke – what had once been noisy and notchy as the crooked coils of the spring rode over the end of the crude spring guide, was now super-smooth and almost inaudible barring a gentle whir as the spring travelled over the guide and couple of muted clicks as (I think) the piston rod entered the end block.

    The next revelation came when the trigger was pulled; this action being rewarded with a solid “thock” sound without a hint of the harshness, vibration and twang that there once was.
    After 30-40 shots I recorded a 10-shot string with JSB Exacts which resulted in just two velocity values – 771 and 772 ft/s – just one foot per second spread :D

    These figures equate to an average muzzle energy of 11.16ftlb; which, when fed into my magical spreadsheet gives a rifle efficiency of 40% - a figure only currently bettered in .177 by my Mk3 TX200 (41%) and of a level usually only associated with decent .22 calibre rifles in my experience. I suspect that if this rifle was .22 it would be running nearer 45% efficiency..


    In summary I'm extremely pleased with the V-Mach kit. Granted I started with a mechanically ropey example of a very good gun so the improvement is very noticeable, but regardless of the benchmark the gun is now both refined and efficient in use.

    The stock still needs attention and I suspect the muzzle assy might warrant more work in future. For now though I'm just going to concentrate on getting some rounds through it and testing how the much-improved firing cycle translates to downrange performance :up:
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2017

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