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Dealers and Second Hand Air Gun's

Discussion in 'Anything Airgun Related' started by Clubshot, Jan 3, 2014.

  1. Clubshot

    Clubshot Clubshot

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    Most Air Gun Shops do not Stock 2nd Hand Air Gun's

    As most have found they are often more trouble than worth

    It's a must to have a in House Air Gun Smith - There is not many of them around the Country

    Not Helped by current Manufactures AT Policy - And failure to make AT Service Kits available to
    Retail Gun Smiths

    Also when a Retailer Sells a 2nd Hand air Gun they have to Add VAT @ 20% on selling Price

    From many years of retail Selling -

    BOB/R
     
  2. andy draper

    andy draper Posting Addict

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    Last edited: Jan 3, 2014
  3. Fisherboy

    Fisherboy Engaging Member

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    Ch Weston in Brighton have almost as many secondhand rifles as new and they have a lot! Just a short jog for you sit down to the coast!
     
  4. The Robin

    The Robin Super Moderator Staff Member Mod/Admin

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    Both local shops to me have plenty of second hand rifle and pistols and both have in house gun smiths. Maybe we are just lucky around by me but I think any good shop should do in house work because there is so much work out there for this from screw cutting barrels to custom builds
     
  5. secretagentmole

    secretagentmole Low down, dirty and quiet...

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    My RFD of choice (Philip Webster) has secondhand air rifles, Simpsons of Newarket have them (the wife's Huntsman came from there), Redbeck in Wakefield, Knibbs in Shustoke, all deal in secondhand rifles, Fenland Rural Sports does, smaller gun shops tend not to, but larger ones do! Bob I think you have this one a bit on the wrong side!
     
  6. Pidlar

    Pidlar Big Poster

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    All 3 of ours deal in 2nd hand too!
     
  7. secretagentmole

    secretagentmole Low down, dirty and quiet...

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    Thing is people may not sell to the RFD as the prices they get can be so low they are almost an insult, usually much better to sell it on yourself!
     
  8. critter

    critter Donator

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    I agree that most RFD I've used all sell 2nd hand, only thing that puts me of buying them is the price! Like mole says the price they offer you is an insult to say the least even if you want to p/x against a new gun. Then they put the 2nd guns a couple of £ below the new ones because it comes with silencer and scope that was traded in with the gun in the first place!
     
  9. Clubshot

    Clubshot Clubshot

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    My money is the Majority of Air Gun RFD's do not Sell or Stock 2nd Hand ;)

    Why would a dealer want to stock a 2nd Hand Gun which comes close to the price of a New one - outfit

    As Stated the price they need to buy it in and offer warrenty -

    Reason many Air Gun clubs have for Sale Tables where Members can sell on unwanted gear

    BOB/R
     
  10. Clubshot

    Clubshot Clubshot

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    Could be a North South difference - Space is Cheaper up North -

    Also Bet that those that do Sell 2nd Hand have a in house gunsmith -

    BOB/R
     
  11. Quentyn

    Quentyn Engaging Member

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    all the ones round here do...

    in fact there isnt a gun shop that sells air guns round here ( W London) that doesnt sell 2nd hand
     
  12. Elk hunter

    Elk hunter Keyboard Hero

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    First off there is no vat on a second hand rifle as far as I'm aware.
    But if you are selling a gun or part ex for something else the dealer needs to make a profit.
    You sell it on here you have no advertisement fee or overheads. The dealer has shop rates, rent, staff, advertising and that rifle may stop on the shelf for 3/4 month or more earning nothing.

    So you walk into his shop with a rifle you wish to part ex and after resurce it's worth £500 on the S/H market. He offers you £300 your insulted because you only wanted to put £300 towards the new gun now you need £500. He has all the above to pay for before a profit.

    But if you look hard enough there are plenty of shops selling second hand rifles. As for skilled gun smiths they cost money and you need the space, shops only have an area like that if it pays. Then he would have to be heavely insured on the publice liability. As soon as the gun smiths undertakes the work they become liable if the gun malfunctions and you get hurt. In this day and age there is always someone to put a claim in, why would the shop bother. Plus they can not compeat with the guy working form his garage.

    Andrew
     
  13. mildot

    mildot Busy Member

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    The OP stated that when a retailer sells a second-hand gun he has to pay VAT. To my knowledge this is true. Joe Public doesn't.
     
  14. secretagentmole

    secretagentmole Low down, dirty and quiet...

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    Er no, sometimes it is like £100 or £200, because it is outdated, new model out, obsolete etc etc! That is what I mean by an insult. We recently sold an outboard engine that came with our boat as it had no power trim and we operate from tidal shallow draft harbours. We got £600 for the outboard, after a service and tune the company will advertise it for £1300, knowing they will get closer to £1000 for it, but they will give a warranty on it. They did not offer us £200 because the Yamaha triple cylindered 2 stroke 30hp engine is old (2005), they have to be older otherwise you cannot buy one (EU regulations) unless it is for commercial use. They tend to be sought after for commercial and rescue use (ie sailing club rescue vessels)! Some people also prefer 2 stroke outboards, I will put up with a four as the petrol consumption is about a third of that of the 2 stroke!

    Why should we tolerate RFDs trying the old/obsolete trick on us to get stock for low prices? A Rapid now fetches close to £650 for a good unmarked example, a friend recently enquired about selling his to be offered £200! So not even 50% of value.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2014
  15. Kenbarcon

    Kenbarcon Donator

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    RFDs only pay VAT on the profit they make, not on the selling price.
     
  16. catman938

    catman938 Engaging Member

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    don't think I have ever walked into gun shop that does not sell second hand guns, they all do around here.
    trying to see the logic in this thread?!!
     
  17. johnbaz

    johnbaz Big Poster

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    'Fraid it's the same here in Sheffield, The three that I go in occasionally all have second hand stock ;)



    John :)
     
  18. tinmanofkent

    tinmanofkent Tiger King

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    There could be VAT on the whole price of a used airgun if it had originally had the VAT claimed back at first purchase. So if a VAT-registered farmer or pest controller had bought the gun first and claimed the VAT back. This still wouldn't really affect the used market values on the shelf but thought I would throw it in ;-)
     
  19. cloverleaf

    cloverleaf Super Moderator Staff Member Mod/Admin

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    To summarise what some have already posted, the two main differences between a used rifle sold privately and by a dealer are that:

    a) The dealer has to pay VAT on their margin; so 1/6th of whatever they make on a sale goes straight to the VAT man (a complete p**s-take IMO; since he's already had one round of VAT when the gun was new).

    b) The dealer is obliged to offer a certain amount of warranty on the used sale; typically 3 months.


    Markup on new guns is usually pretty poor, so second-hand sales can be attractive since they can potentially offer a greater margin. However, risk is low with new items since the manufacturer covers the warranty (although the dealer still has the bother of returning the gun), while used items can be a bit of a minefield. Popular, reliable, easily-repaired, mid-priced guns make sensible used sales; while guns that are unpopular, unreliable, difficult / expensive to repair (for whatever reason, including anti-tamper) or very cheap are much less desirable.

    Unpopular guns will obviously be slow and difficult to sell. Stuff that's cheap / easy to repair will lose less money should it fail and need attention within the 3-month warranty; best-case scenario repairs will be done in-house, worse case scenario it has to be farmed out at additional cost. Repairs on some of the more "exotic" guns (that have poor / expensive spares availability or are difficult to work on) could easily cost the dealer more than the margin they hoped to make. Buy-in prices for such guns will reflect this possibility.

    Very cheap guns (<£150 new, perhaps) are hardly worth bothering with since the percentage margin must be higher to make the sale worth it (20% of a £500 sale is a lot more than 20% of a £50 sale; for potentially the same amount of work). Stuff at the cheaper end of the market can be less reliable and potentially effectively disposable from the manufacturer's perspective; meaning an issue with a cheap used gun could cost the dealer more than the margin they made on the gun in the first place - or worst case scenario result in a total loss if the gun can't be economically repaired.

    Add to this that cheap and nasty stuff tends to depreciate harder than "better" stuff; so this, combined with the need to make a reasonable margin can quickly lead to customer-offendingly low buy-in prices to make the whole process worthwhile for the shop.

    The dealer has to assess the gun before buying it. A basic inspection and velocity test should be carried out; however accuracy and 'scope tests are unfeasible for most dealers - adding further potential for unidentified problems. We also know that (as with used cars) many find it less morally-questionable to offload fault-riddled products on dealers than private individuals; so in the trade, odds are somewhat stacked towards buying a dog.

    In the dealer's defense; compared to a private sale their price and margin has to account for all of the above - extra VAT plus the potential risk of costs incurred down the line if the gun requires work (either before being sold or as part of a warranty). Because of this it's natural that dealer's will offer significantly less than market value when buying in; and likewise will seek to sell at higher prices than those found privately. Of course this doesn't really excuse the sale of used items at fractionally less than new alternatives; however as with any sale "caveat emptor" - IMO someone who buys an overpriced gun from a dealer only has themselves to blame for not having done their homework.

    As a shooter you have to be realistic about the above when selling to, or buying from a dealer. Of course you can sell for more and buy for less privately, since you're not paying for the dealer's margin. When selling to a dealer you're paying for an easy sale and potentially not having to entertain/vet all manner of chancers when selling privately. When buying you're paying for peace of mind in the form of the dealer's (potentially) expert guarantee that the gun is in good working order and that it will remain that way for a reasonable period.

    Many dealers still stock used air rifles; some are more knowledge than others, some are more trustworthy than others. You will pay more from a dealer, but then you should get more in return. If you want top-drawer price when selling pull your finger out and sell it yourself privately. If you want the lowest price when buying; do your homework, learn to assess what you're looking at (determine how to identify common faults and buy a chrono) and get out amongst it ;)
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2014
  20. Elk hunter

    Elk hunter Keyboard Hero

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    If you wish a quick fix and swap your rifle the RFD is PURFECT but you take a hit, that's tough. But you aways have the option to use a forum of website for free and get what you think it's worth. This may take time so if you do not wish to tolerate the RFD you don't have to.
    As for the outboard you could have sold it privately, you chose Not to because the deal worked for you if you were not happy again you can walk.

    Andrew
     

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