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Case law

Discussion in 'Anything Airgun Related' started by Gollum, May 30, 2015.

  1. Gollum

    Gollum Donator

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    Regarding 12fpe limit. I have seen posted a statement that there is existing case law in which it was determined that a it was not a FAC offence when a chap was stopped and his rifle tested when under 12fpe with the only pellets he had with him, yet over with pellets police tested it with. I am sure I am going to have to toil through Stones Justice manual for hours but just on the off chance is anyone aware of stated case, Regina v ??????
     
  2. neil82

    neil82 Busy Member

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    seem to remember there was one, I think plod used air bullets to test and the crux of the case was they were not widely available so the case was thrown out (air bullets are solid lead slugs of an extremely heavy weight, think they were made by Ain Jun, Korean I think)
     
  3. bhodge

    bhodge Posting Addict

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    A legal precedent....
    If you can find the details of the case in question then you'd be doing us all a favour.
     
  4. Gollum

    Gollum Donator

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    Yes it would be a Godsend if we could find it, tho I suspect its an urban myth. Will try my best tho!

    It does seem strange tho when the likes of the BASC, RFD's and especially the Airgun Magazines cannot find and publish the csae law on the word capable as there must be loads?
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2015
  5. bhodge

    bhodge Posting Addict

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    Since I've read your post I've been looking for details of such a case....so far with no luck, but I will continue looking.
     
  6. BiggaJ

    BiggaJ Donator

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    Not sure about the case you mention however, there have been numerous stories pertaining to what the OP is saying.

    My understanding is that it is or could be very easy for any police force to test an under the limit gun and conclude it to be over the limit. Truth is how far is a force likely to go to prove this given all the other major crimes they need to solve and especially if the owner of said gun can provide enough evidence to show they have been a responsible owner, provide crono sheets, possibly a member of a club etc etc.

    I have a friend in the Berkshire force who has said it's not often police will go to huge lengths to nick someone that can show they are a responsible owner. He has offered to put me in touch with the fire arms officer for Berkshire. Might be worth a chat face to face.
     
  7. Blackmax

    Blackmax Forum Rude Guy

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    My view, for what it's worth is that any test the police carry out themselves is of little value and would only be as a precursor to submission to a forensic lab who would complete a full report. Anything less than a full forensic examination wouldn't satisfy the requirements of a court as it requires a level of expertise and training.

    My closest friend is a Crime Scene Manager and he can't ever recall ever sending an airgun to the lab for forensic examination in his 12 years. He suggested it would only happen as part of an investigation into a serious crime and the cost would run into thousands of pounds.
     
  8. dave goodall

    dave goodall Donator

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    The police dont test rifles it wouldn't stand up in court if they did there own tests it has to be tested by a independent RFD or in some cases depending on circumstances a labotary. Don't listen to rumours of police carrying chronos ect it's total pish most police officers won't even touch a air rifle esp a side cocking pcp and call in the aru to deal with them . There then sent to a a RFD / lab where there tested in 10 shot spreads with a selection of common brand pellets there not going to be putting a 30 grain pellet through it more like 10 shots of 14.3 .22 10 shot 16 grain .22 and ten shot 18 grain .22 obviously if the guns .22 they use a selection of brands of the said weights tho . Theres no mass conspiracy between police officers and if your gun is found to be legal limit u will get your gun back with proof of the tests weight and power out put in fps. Yes there has been cases like the Ian Collins case where it was said the police interferd with the said Theoben but proof of this was never submited just rumours on forums as he was selling silencers and tunning guns with out a rfd licence hth Dave
     
  9. Gollum

    Gollum Donator

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    In the Merseyside area up until 5 years ago (don't know now) it was a fairly regular occurence for air rifles to be checked (admittedly usually belononging to the less responsible members of society and more often than not when associated with an offence such as trespassing with a firearm). I do know that at that time each of the test labs used different test or a variation of such (I contacted them all) Some with one pellet some with series of pellets. Well if I can find a stated case the Fred Bloggs had only type A pellets with him (and was under limit) but it was tested with type B,C and D and was over the limit and Freds gun was deeemed not capable of exceeding limit as he only had type A I for one would rest easy.
    Sadly I no longer have access to Stones Justices Manuals so unless t he local library has them I am unlikely to get a definative answer. Any solicitors on here doing criminal law?????
     
  10. mikemjm

    mikemjm Donator

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    What you will find is that most police forces have a scan chrono with their armourer who will test the gun, not to evidential standards but to determine whether it's worth the cost of sending it to a lab.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2015
  11. secretagentmole

    secretagentmole Low down, dirty and quiet...

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    Sorry in these days of restricted funding sometimes the police use RFDs to check power. Seen it myself, at an RFDs house, boxes with seized for evidence tabs on and police paperwork.
     
  12. secretagentmole

    secretagentmole Low down, dirty and quiet...

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    No they use RFDs, seen it myself, please see post above!
    Mind you sometimes the armourer can be an RFD!
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2015
  13. dave goodall

    dave goodall Donator

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    It's not about funding its about the case sticking in court if found to be over the RFD is a independent witness in the court room Labs are only brought in to the equation when ballistics are needed ect
     
  14. SteveO

    SteveO Top Poster

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    The last time I saw JB he told me the police had given him a batch of air rifles that were seized as part of a police investigation, he was asked to dispose of them and it's where the stock furniture that he gave me for my r10 came from. Wouldn't be surprised if he had tested for the police in the past.
     
  15. secretagentmole

    secretagentmole Low down, dirty and quiet...

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    It is about funding. RFD is cheaper than "NabdaCrim" Criminal Forensic Laboratories! RFD already has established business selling firearms. Wants to keep Police happy and keep license. Ergo his price is cheaper than a chrono test by "NabdaCrim", who have a staff of highly trained technical buggeruppers. Their only source of income is testing things for the police, their laboratories are expensive places to staff, fuel and service. Their costs per test will be much higher!
     
  16. mikemjm

    mikemjm Donator

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    ********. do you think its possible to run ballistic test on an air rifle pellet?
     
  17. secretagentmole

    secretagentmole Low down, dirty and quiet...

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    Of course it is a .177 is bigger than a .17 round, .22 is the same calibre as a .22 rim fire or centre fire, the lans and grooves will make an identifiable mark on the pellet if you can retrieve it, say from Mrs Timsons moggy, all you have to do is fire into ballistic gel and get the pellet to compare....
     
  18. Blackmax

    Blackmax Forum Rude Guy

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    They might get an RFD to check it to see if it's over the limit if they don't have an armourer, then decide to send it off to a Forensic Service Provider if it is likely to be over the limit dependant on whether the cost can be justified under the circumstances.

    I discussed this with my friend yesterday and it wouldn't be sufficient for court purposes for anything other than a full lab test with results to be completed. The tester would have to be qualified to home office standards and provide full details of their qualifications and the process used. It would also be open to suggestion if the police approached an RFD directly due to lack of independence. If forwarded to an unknown tester via the force Scenes of Crime Department it would satisfy this need for independence.

    The other issue he outlined was continuity as if the gun left police possession prior to going to a forensic service provider then the evidential chain would be broken and it would open the case up to interference which would introduce a level of doubt. This would not be an issue if the officer was present during the triage process, however, if they just left it with the RFD then the case would be flawed.

    Because the burden of proof in a criminal court is so high, beyond all reasonable doubt nothing more will suffice.

    As you say Secret Agent Mole with police budgets being cut they're unlikely to send it to an FSP unless there are exceptional circumstances.
     
  19. Blackmax

    Blackmax Forum Rude Guy

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    You're quite correct Dave.
     

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