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case hardening

Discussion in 'Anything Airgun Related' started by chefslot, Sep 30, 2014.

  1. chefslot

    chefslot Active Member

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    So i have heard about case hardening, after stripping down my mod60 and polishing parts of the gun out, i noticed the cocking arm to be made from soft metal. i was thinking about case hardening the foot to harden it and to also help it glide. i was also thinking about the piston but that does appear to be made from a high carbon steel, but im no expert. What do you guys think?* Regards jon
     
  2. vitalich

    vitalich Keyboard Hero

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    Get yourself any good weihrauch
     
  3. ratman60

    ratman60 Pro Poster

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    hello, this would not be something i would recommend, lets say you case hardened to foot you would have a weak link with rest of arm so best to do the complete unit, there are degrees of case harden but if you decide to do heat up till blue but no more and dip in oil might give that extra strength. would not consider piston, the foreign made rifles like chinese do not use quality steel like say HWs.
     
  4. chefslot

    chefslot Active Member

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    Mmmm this is what i was thinking, but could i not re-temper it so it is not as fragile but still have a higher carbon content?
    Regards jon
     
  5. Nickg

    Nickg Posting Addict

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    That's not case hardening, If its low carbon steel, heating it up and quenching will achieve precisely nothing.
     
  6. chefslot

    chefslot Active Member

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    Precisely mate, i shall explain for the others, heat to red hot then add to the hardening powder, remove excess material and then temper back down ( a little more to it then that, but thats the jist ) Do you think it will make the sliding action on the piston smoother nick?
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2014
  7. Nickg

    Nickg Posting Addict

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    If you use a hardening powder such as kasenit, you will only achieve a very shallow depth of case, and it wont last very long, To be honest it probably wont make any difference to the cocking, or the action of the piston, probably best to just de burr and keep it well lubed.
     
  8. chefslot

    chefslot Active Member

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    Cheers nick, words of wisdom.
     
  9. mattyts

    mattyts Donator

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    I'll have to get myself a weihrauch,didn't know they did case hardening.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2014
  10. ratman60

    ratman60 Pro Poster

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    hello, maybe i should have made it a bit clear, i put case hardening but that is using a special formula and does not go to great depth, the way i mention is ideal if you only want to extra harden but not to make brittle, you can do as i described using water to quench quick or use oil as we did in a major engineering factory, you can heat to cherry red but i did not think that suitable for that componant. i suggest you read how to case harden steel on wikihow.
     
  11. mattyts

    mattyts Donator

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    Remember that quenching and rapid cooling could also cause warping like it does in knife blades.
     
  12. ratman60

    ratman60 Pro Poster

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    yes matty but knife blades are most made of carbon steel or stainless and require a different technique. i just put a way for the forum member to do without to much hassle. foreign made cheaper air rifles like from china can never be compaired to the quality materials like used in HWs or AA,
     
  13. keithy

    keithy Very Active

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    case hardening will not work on low carbon mild steel unless you heat it to cherry red or hotter and immerse in graphite powder. The quenching method will work on high carbon steel (think drills, gauge plate, silver steel etc) I very much doubt that the part on your rifle is made of high grade (expensive) steel.:rolleyes:
     
  14. engraver

    engraver Keyboard Hero

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    When I did my engineering apprenticeship and then gunmaking.

    We learned about Pack carburizing.

    This is when you can place a low carbon steel gun part in a box full of charcoal, coke, even leather, and heat it for a few hours then quench it to freeze its state.

    What happens if the outer layer of steel absorbs the high carbon content and case hardens the other layer as much as up to 1mm, this has been used in gunmaking for hundreds of years.

    I remember been very nervous about handling expensive shotgun actions until I was told to try and file a £100k shotgun action that had been case hardened and the big bstd file just ran over it like it was made from glass, the manager then took it out the vice and threw it across the bench even though it had been engraved:eek:, he said don't be afraid nothing will touch this now, point taken everyday was a schoolday:D
     
  15. mattyts

    mattyts Donator

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    You still run the risk of distortion when any heat applied(heat treating gears are the worse for this) ,it may be fractional or otherwise,how much is down to that individual piece or steel though.

    I wouldn't say the materials is what sets these rifles apart (turk not Chinese) it's more of the interior and exterior finish and general care taken during assembly that puts the German or English rifles ahead.

    Beware though,Turkey is catching up :p

    I personally wouldn't harden anything except load bearing pins like the 3 at the back and several in the trigger group.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2014
  16. ratman60

    ratman60 Pro Poster

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    hello, by materials i mean the quality of the steel used say in china to germany, having been to china a number of times and researched there manufacturing processes and visited certain factories there quality control is still not to the standards of many EU countries, you would think that china being such a modern country now still use bamboo poles as a scaffold tube.
     
  17. rkr

    rkr Keyboard Hero

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    Next time you do BBQ you could bury the part in hot coals for half and hour and then dip in to used engine oil. It should give you a very thin layer of carbon steel at the surface as well as black surface. I did that to the loading lever I made for my Evanix and it has been working well since.

    [​IMG]
     
  18. chefslot

    chefslot Active Member

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    Yeah been looking into it a bit. What first caught my eye was how the Vikings used to make a superior sword etc. It being heated in a carbon rich environment, this led to was were it is done now using kilns and baking it in a cask, like larry potterfield has done on his youtube videos.

    I was hoping to maybe try to get a glass finish on both the piston and the cocking foot. Surely once quenched you would then have to reheat and slowly cool to allow for less brittle material?

    many thanks
     
  19. chefslot

    chefslot Active Member

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    Nice work mate. Well been looking into old recipes and most are a mixture of bone, wood and leather charcoal. These are organic ways, i have heard a lot about a fantastic powder that is now been banned as it is too dangerous for people to use.

    Regards jon
     
  20. chefslot

    chefslot Active Member

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    Spot on mate. Thou i couldn't do this style as no kiln, do you think heating it up cherry red and then dropping into a powder of bone charcoal and leather a few times may work? Years chefing we heat a pan up hot and rub salt and oil into it to make non stick, called seasoning the pan, i think this is on the same lines but at a lot lesser effect, because as soon as some numpty stuck it in the pot wash it was ruined again.
     

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