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Question Bullpup Butts(tocks) – Cut Them Off! – Why Are They Not Shorter?

Discussion in 'Anything Airgun Related' started by JungleShooter, Oct 19, 2019.

  1. JungleShooter

    JungleShooter Engaging Member

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    Bullpup Butts(tocks) – Cut Them Off! – Why Are They Not Shorter?

    OK, I’m being serious here – WHY are the buttstocks of bullpups often so long? ❓

    Disclaimer: Please, if you don’t like bullpups, that’s quite all right, but reading this thread probably is going to be a waste of your precious time. And sorry my Canadian friends if your country thinks that bullpups are dangerous and must be outlawed, that’s just another helicopter-government – and I feel for you.


    The Reason Bullpups Exist
    I tend to agree with Wikipedia on this – the reason bullpups exist is to deliver the same power and precision – but in a much shorter and lighter package. So, with the same barrel length, the goal is to go as short and light as feasible.


    First Surprise
    But to some size does NOT seem important...? That must be Airgun Depot’s stance. In their (otherwise very helpful) series Head to Head they compare different airguns with each other, and assign points to each to arrive at a ranking. Well, size is not among the criteria that earns any points...! Go figure.
    For instance, in the article below, a 27% difference in size was not important to the reviewers.... (7.8" = 19.8cm). ?!?
    https://www.airgundepot.com/head-to-head-kral-puncher-breaker-silent-vs-hatsan-bullboss-article.html


    Second Surprise
    I liked the performance/price ratio of the Artemis P15.* But I liked the looks of Diana’s version of the P15, with the Minelli stock, so that’s what Santa brought me in April (yes, shipping to Peru takes a WHILE).
    Now, look with me at the Skyhawk:** There is a long and heavy part of woodstock after the action that extends far beyond the action. There are well over 3 inches to this gun that do little if anything to improve the shooting of this gun (unless I’m missing something here...). If I wanted a gun that long, then please, don’t give me 3" of dead wood, instead give me 3" of extra barrel that will translate directly into more power or more shots per fill....
    And the argument that these extra 3" are needed to increase length of pull (“so that my trigger hand and my forehand will be positioned farther away from my body”) – well, I suggest to design the trigger and the forestock 3" forward, instead of the buttstock 3" further back – and voilà!
    * 26.6" (68cm) OAL = P15
    **29.0" (74cm) OAL = Skyhawk


    ❓ My First Question
    So, WHY do manufacturers waste precious inches on unnecessary stock?

    Unnecessary – that’s what it seems to me at least (and maybe I’m just dead wrong).
    Unnecessary like bloat ware – I’d call them bloat stocks, i.e., longer than necessary.


    ❓ My Second Question
    So, WHY should I not simply CUT OFF the bloated buttstock?
    – (beside the more obvious reason of acquiring a legal “You’re-out-of-your-mind!” certificate).
    My cut would “gain” [read: loose] almost 3.5" (9cm) – a significantly shorter gun for packing and handling in confined spaces.


    Bloat Stocks
    To illustrate this curious buttstock phenomena, below is a sampling of 40 bullpup photos (also as Hi-Res photo for download at the link). See for yourself how some bullpups have efficient stocks, and others flaunt bloat stocks.


    Happy shooting,

    Matthias

    LINK for Hi-Res Photo: https://www.mediafire.com/view/nydn2wr2701c8y3/Bullpups._Bloat_Stocks._06._HiRes_15.1Mb.jpg



    Lo-Res:

    [​IMG]
     
  2. RichieRich

    RichieRich Ping!

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    Are you measuring from the buttstock to the trigger?
     
    Jester likes this.
  3. JungleShooter

    JungleShooter Engaging Member

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    I'm not measuring pull.

    I'm measuring from the shoulder pad of the buttstock to the beginning of the action — because this part of the stock does not seem to be very necessary.
    The gun photos are all lined up with the beginning of the actions. That way the buttstocks that extend further out can be easily identified — in the list the unnecessary buttstock length gets progressively worse.
     
  4. Spray1Mark

    Spray1Mark I see light at the end of the tunnel!

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    You collated the worst looking guns on the market!
     
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  5. JungleShooter

    JungleShooter Engaging Member

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    Spray1Mark, :)

    I think you missed the Disclaimer at the beginning of the post....

    Fortunately, in the airguniverse there is space for both of us! :loser:

    Matthias
     
    Deleted Member 42982 likes this.
  6. Deleted Member 42982

    Deleted Member 42982 Banned

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    Naughty boy Finger!!!
     
  7. Neil Curtis

    Neil Curtis Engaging Member

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    0_bTki5g0l.jpg
    That's all I'll say. If the gun fits,use it.
     
  8. SandShooter

    SandShooter Engaging Member

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    Eh???? Am I missing something here, I thought the key was fit to the individual shooter? There cannot be any hard or fast rules as everybody is different....
     
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  9. johnbaz

    johnbaz Big Poster

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    I had chance to buy this Daystate Huntsman mk1 pup for £200 off a mate, I thought it felt and looked Butt ugly so I declined, I was later told it's a very rare factory bullpup, One of only twenty made!!, Still kicking myself today!! (Still fugly tho'!!)
    [​IMG]


    John :facepalm::oops:
     
    Deleted Member 42982 likes this.
  10. Spray1Mark

    Spray1Mark I see light at the end of the tunnel!

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    Actually I read the disclaimer, it's not that I dont like bullpups, I was just commenting you collated the worst looking guns on the market!
     
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  11. Paul G W

    Paul G W Posting Addict

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    What? Wait a minute!......
    Is butt really just a shortened version of buttock? :frusty:
     
  12. JungleShooter

    JungleShooter Engaging Member

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    Yupp:
    The Daystate is butt-ugly.
    Butt does comes from buttock.
    And Spray1Mark successfully keeps insulting my taste in guns. But I can take it like a man. ;)


    Any opinions on the issue of the OP? Why is there so much buttstock after the action -- needlessly I loudly proclaim = bloat stock...? :eek:

    Matthias
     
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  13. rkr

    rkr Keyboard Hero

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    Because many of those guns are just normal guns slapped in a bullpup stock. Having more stock after action moves cocking lever forward a bit and removes the magazine from under your cheek. Then there's adjustable buttpads and looks to consider. As an example Steyr has only minimal amount of extra length and if you were to change the buttpad to a flat piece of metal it would have almost no extra length.
     
  14. JungleShooter

    JungleShooter Engaging Member

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    rkr,

    some good points — for some guns.

    Yeah, cocking lever really should be forward of or right above the trigger.

    But if it's so far back, that little more does not seem to make such a big difference.

    Yupp, adjustable buttpad for those who want one. OK.

    Steyr still has about 2" (5cm) of stock after the action = bloat stock. — The true champions in efficient buttstocks are the EDguns Lelya and Matador R5M, and The Priest 1+2.

    Matthias
     
  15. hamza

    hamza breaking strain of a kit kat

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    There's a few points that you need to consider I think. Your question assumes the manufacturer sets out to create the shortest possible gun when making a bullpup, to the expense of all other factors.

    While this may be true for the Edgun Lelya I doubt it's true for the Kozak.

    Manufacturers will also be trying to make the gun comfortable to shoulder, balance well both on the shoulder and carrying. The Kozak for example has clearly choses to have a long butt stock to provide more comfort and an adjustable cheek peice.

    The other bit of analysis you may be missing is the length of pull. Perhaps on some of the bloated butt stocks the length of pull would be too short if it was kept shorter?
     
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  16. rkr

    rkr Keyboard Hero

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    It's not aways a bloat stock, sometimes you just can't move the action back any further to keep the gun comfortable. Like in my Viking, the stock end where inlet valve cover starts and there's a minimum amount of handle in front of the trigger. Still some 20mm extra behind the action but that's needed for comfortable shooting position:

    [​IMG]

    That's not the case with most of those pups you pictured but guns like Ataman P17 are getting closer to the minimum length for an airgun bullpup which lies somewhere around 45 cm in my opinion. It's worth remembering that people have managed to shoot their fingers with them micro bullpups.
     
  17. JungleShooter

    JungleShooter Engaging Member

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    hamza,

    I suppose you are right — the manufacturers don't necessarily consider making bullpups as short as possible....
    Especially those who make semi-bullpups like the Kozak you mention. Yeah, sure, a more comfortable cheek rest is a good thing in the winter.



    Now about the length of pull — the OP said:
    "The argument that these extra 3" [of Skyhawk buttstock] are needed to increase length of pull (“so that my trigger hand and my forehand will be positioned farther away from my body”) – well, I suggest to design the trigger and the forestock 3" forward, instead of the buttstock 3" further back – and voilà!"


    I went to my other bullpup comparison chart and compared LOP.
    Of the guns with efficient buttstocks the Lelya has an exceptionally long LOP in comparison to most other bullpups on the chart! The Matador R5M isn't far behind, also the Huben K1.

    And there are those with an efficient buttstock that have a LOP on the shorter side: The Ataman M2R Bulllpup Compact, even the Impact, and the P15.



    This length of pull — how important is this really?

    And isn't there a large degree of margin permissable — a few inches more or a few inches less won't make much of a difference?
    —> I mean, we don't have recoil to speak of. We don't have an extremely heavy gun (bullpup-light!). So, is length of pull simply a customary feeling of the arm of a seasoned shooter that doesn't want to get used to a different feeling of his arm when shooting a bullpup?


    I'm seriously asking these questions! All the while looking over to my toolbox where the saw is stowed that might (or might not) cut of the Skyhawks butt...!

    Matthias
     
  18. hamza

    hamza breaking strain of a kit kat

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    You're right that the grip and trigger could always be moved forward to get the right length of pull...

    ...but then we come back to the manufacturers aims when creating the bullpup. If the goal was the shortest possible gun they would do this, but other considerations may be higher priority. In this case it may be the ability to reuse existing components or machining in order to keep costs down.

    Many of the bullpups we see are not designed from a clean sheet but instead rely heavily on a manufacturers existing investment in parts and machining. As such they may compromise of some principles such as overall length in favour of cost or reuse of parts.

    Without knowing the manufacturers design goals and original constraints it's hard to say exactly why they came up with the design they did but it almost certainly won't be a pure technical limitation or an inability to engineer a shorter bullpup.
     
  19. hamza

    hamza breaking strain of a kit kat

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    Oh and loving your diagrams and comparisons by the way.

    I own a Galahad and Impact with a Pro X on the wish list.... and now a Lelya too partly because of you!
     
  20. JungleShooter

    JungleShooter Engaging Member

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    hamza,
    I always try to be an enabler, with guns and most other things in life.

    And I appreciate your careful reasoning, to me you sound convincing about many of the manufacturers' decisions.

    So — to cut, or not to cut.
    Well, I'll order the shoulder pad I'm thinking of using, and see if it even will fit....
    The photoshopped Skyhawk could look something like this, most of 3" shorter (8cm).

    Skyhawk with Shortened Buttstock. 01.jpg
     

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