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Question Best position to put lamp on scope?

Discussion in 'Hunting' started by Andy Wales, Oct 1, 2014.

  1. Andy Wales

    Andy Wales Donator

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    Should the front of the torch remain behind the front of the scope, or should the torch overhang the scope slightly? I think I have tried both with my Cree Ultrafire and I sometimes see a too bright image or a poor looking image in the scope. Can't seem to quite describe what I mean properly sorry. Would it not cause shadows or something by sitting just behind the end of the scope?

    Many years ago when a friend used to come "lamping" with me (Shotgun), he would shine a powerful white lamp and with full beam on a sherpa van most of the rabbits would just sit there looking dazed. Some would run away but not far usually. Now I read posts saying that red light is less likely to spook them as they run from white. I'm not saying what's right or wrong as I don't know myself now, I'm just asking for advice/views on this thanks.

    Also, it obviously puts out a very powerful bright white light when zoomed all the way/almost all the way. I can't seem to find red filters ready made for my model to try them, so is it possible to somehow make your own and fit them?

    Here's the one I bought.

    http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/171411811901?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

    I don't get it. I only paid £7.96 for this torch with charger and battery etc and it now seems to be £40 :eek:. First time I have been back to the page myself since I bought it. How can it have gone up that much? :confused:
     
  2. mattyts

    mattyts Donator

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    I have the same torch,the absolute best thing to do us to bin those batteries and the charger and invest in a decent 18650 setup.

    Ultrafire batteries are cheap,nasty and prone to failure including fires,venting or explosion.
     
  3. Andy Wales

    Andy Wales Donator

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    Is this related to the position on scope question though? Not being funny, are you saying the torch is crap and that's why it looks overbright etc in the scope? It does have an adaptor for 3 AAA's which I use (good quality recharge ones) and they seem to last a long time so I never charge it with the battery that came with it anyway. I don't do "all night" shoots anyway, only an hour or two after dark and it easily lasts long enough. It sends a beam a long way into fields etc so I don't know? Hmm, I seem to be always told to "bin" everything lol
     
  4. SteveO

    SteveO Top Poster

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    I bought a dozen genuine Ultrafire 18650 batteries and have had no issues with them, in fact they last 2 or 3 outings before needing a recharge, I bought an Xtar VP1 charger and battery pouch though as the Chinese chargers don't inspire me with confidence.

    In answer to your question Andy, I mount the torch bracket on the scope so that the front of the torch sits just behind the front of the scope, never have any issues with glare or shadows.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2014
  5. mattyts

    mattyts Donator

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    The torch is great,I'm unaware of anything that beats it for the price.

    Think of it as the hatsan of torches ;)

    I recently spoke to Jim (torchythebatteryboy) who did a few tests with the Ultrafires,some were pretty good,I can't remember which models they were but they definitely weren't the ones I got with the torch,the "4000mah" Ultrafires (no idea if genuine but I bet they weren't,the cells had spelling mistakes on them) don't last half as long as my true 2600mah Torchy batteries.

    Like Steve said,the chargers aren't too smart,I wouldn't use one without keeping a careful eye on it,also,don't completely discharge your batteries.

    I have mine directly above the scope but noticed some issues with glare off a moderator if there is one fitted but a bit of camo tape solved that.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2014
  6. SteveO

    SteveO Top Poster

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    I just read the feedback comments from the seller where Andy bought his torch, if even a fraction of the comments are true it's highly likely he's selling fakes, fakes are very dangerous!
     
  7. mattyts

    mattyts Donator

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    I bought mine from the same shop,I'm tempted to open the cells up to see if they are just AAA sized batteries in a shell,like the ones below.

    Easy to see why you can buy them for 25p each,I paid £25 for a charger and 2 batteries from Jim,they are unprotected,high drain cells.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2014
  8. SteveO

    SteveO Top Poster

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    I brought my batteries from this seller, they weren't cheap and am hoping that they are legit inside as I don't want to rip one apart for no reason.

    http://www.ebay.co.uk/usr/md-flashlights-etc-ltd
     
  9. mattyts

    mattyts Donator

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    Mine are littered with spelling mistakes,telling me "not to discurd the bettery" if yours are lasting a few outings then they are doing better than mine ;)
     
  10. timmytree

    timmytree Top Poster

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    Back to the torch mounting, on my S200 I modified a couple of plumbing fittings to clip the torch on the airtube under the stock, no glare or reflection. For a red filter just use some red cellophane from quality street and an elastic band.
     
  11. DR2501

    DR2501 Donator

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    I also mount mine just behind the scope lens and have had no issues. I bought a sheet of stage lighting red filter and cut it to fit. Cost me about £1 on eBay (cheaper than a tin of quality streets but not as tasty lol).
     
  12. Andy Wales

    Andy Wales Donator

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    Love it Matty!! :roflmao:

    Bettery sounds like the way that "French" gendarme would say it in Allo Allo lol :D
     
  13. Honest Bob

    Honest Bob Big Poster

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    As per the pictures, I place my torch just behind th object lens. As for a red filter, I have never used one, as most of the time the Rabbits just tend to be transfixed by the bright lite, but I do use a night vision Monocular to spot them in the first place, so I am not shining the torch all over the place, but some good filter suggestions above. Atb. Bob View attachment 104493 View attachment 104494
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2014
  14. Andy Wales

    Andy Wales Donator

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    I will put mine a little further back next time I do an after dark hour or two and see what happens. I seem to have a slight glare now and then that's why I asked where you guys mount your torches. Never seen one mounted side on before but I guess it works just the same?

    As for the white light, as I said in my original post, years ago I always found them to be mainly transfixed by white light too and never gave red bulbs/filters a thought. Not sure what to do now. I have only been after dark twice on just two fields so far but saw no rabbits at all, so I can't say how the torch will perform or affect the rabbits yet. The AAA rechargeables in the adapter for the torch last for a heck of a long time at full brightness and I carry 3 spares so I'm not worried about the "blowing up etc" issue as they are good quality branded ones with the highest MaH rating for AAA's (Cheap chinese rubbish are higher but probably aren't really and are probably crap).

    Thanks for uploading the pics. Very useful Bob :)

    EDIT: Meant to say that I can't fault the power of the thing considering it's size. Fully or nearly fully zoomed, it sends a very bright beam a long, long way across the fields. Only thing I HATE is the stupid SOS etc modes :mad:. They are very annoying and you have to cycle through them to get back to the brightest beam often......Grrrrr Now that MAY be enough to scare/spook rabbits etc :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2014
  15. DR2501

    DR2501 Donator

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    Try just holding the button down rather than clicking through the cycle mate - works on some torches/bike lights by just turning off then you can click once to get to the full beam again :)
     
  16. terry1001

    terry1001 Major Poster

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    You can mount the torch anywhere that's convenient. The only thing to watch out for is that you don't want it to cast a shadow of the front of the scope into your field of view so it's simpler to mount it with the front of the torch just behind the front of the scope. If it's zoomed in to a tight beam that won't even matter.
    What is more important is to have the torch and scope aligned properly so that your target is in the centre of the beam, this is more of an issue with night vision where light output is much lower. This can be difficult with cheap mounting systems some of which are no more effective than a couple of turns of insulating tape.
    There are loads of dodgy batteries about although I've never come across one myself. If yoy're not getting a decent run time from your torch the battery is likely to be sub-standard. The physical size of the 18650 cell limits the capacity it can have and the maximum seems to be about 3000mah, anything claiming 5000mah is a wild exaggeration. A good source of quality cells is old laptop batteries, these usually contain about 6 cells and often it's only 1 that has failed. The big names use quality cells in their battery packs but you do have to be careful when dismantling them - don't do it if you're heavy handed.
    Chargers are important, the ones that come with the torches and batteries are usually cheap and nasty. I use a Nitecore i4 which is very good and at less than £20 is excellent value since it will charge a wide range of cells and you can do 4 different types at the same time. This type of charger is designed so that it won't overcharge the cells which is a potential cause of problems.
    If your torch is too bright for viewing through the scope it's nothing to do with mounting, you've just got too much light. Either zoom to a wider beam, use a lower power setting or get a more suitable torch. Most of the leds used in these cheap Chinese torches are actually quite good with a favourite being the Cree XML in one of its variants, the T6 used to be the most common but they have now moved on to the U series. The maximum output for these leds is about 1200 lumens when running at about 3 amps, if they are quoting 2000 lumens they must be using a different measuring system.
    Any led drawing 3 amps (or even a fair bit less) will generate a lot of heat and it is important to draw this heat away from the electronics, if you don't do this the components are likely to die an early death. As a part of modifying the torches that I sell I put in a decent heat sink to get around this problem.
    The white leds used are normally those that have a brilliant white appearance, this is achieved by making them so that they contain more blue light than red. The old tungsten light bulbs etc gave a 'warm' light which has a lot more red in it but, for the same power output, the bluish ones look brighter - this is because of the sensitivity of our vision to different colours. Like most animals our sight is less sensitive to longer wavelengths so red appears quite dim and infra red is invisible. Red is supposed to be invisible to rabbits. When you put a filter in front of a light it will only let through light of that colour so putting a red (or infra red) filter in front of one of the very bright, bluish leds will not produce much light output at all. It is much more effective to use a proper led which emits the desired colour, a Cree or Oslon red led producing 120 lumens or so will give much more red light than a filter in front of a white one. As a bonus the red led runs at 1 amp (not 3 amps) and will last much longer in use.
    Rabbits are very nervous creatures and always on the alert for a predator. Their eyesight is not very good (compared to ours) but their hearing is excellent. They are also very aware of movement and anything out of place will startle them. This does include shadows, a sudden shadow could easily be a raptor and so they will run. If you wave your torch about you will create loads of rapidly moving shadows so you should use no more light than you need for shooting and move it slowly and carefully - this also applies to night vision. When I'm shooting at night I use a red lamp all the time for moving around, sorting out kit etc. With night vision I keep everything as dim as possible and have a red torch on the rifle which I can use for spotting or making sure that I don't fall down a hole etc, with it set on low power and wide zoom there's enough light to see where I'm going but it doesn't light up half the county.
     
  17. Andy Wales

    Andy Wales Donator

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    Yes mate, this often works. Unfortunately, the button on these is so sensitive that sometimes you intend "pressing" but end up "gently touching" the button with the result of a mode change instead lol. It drives you mad. I have been reading the post about converting them to just "Full power beam" only, but I don't want to risk buggering the thing up completely lol :D
     
  18. Andy Wales

    Andy Wales Donator

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    @Terry. As you are known as the resident "Torch/night hunting" guy around here, as well as being very knowledgeable on most things about shooting, I always read your posts carefully and enjoy them, so thanks very much for that great explanation. Read, absorbed and noted for my own use. Very helpful as always! :)

    EDIT: The part about not lighting up half the country. I have to wear the weakest rated "poundshop" glasses these days for reading up to maybe 1ft away (book), but in all other distances, my last optician told me my eyesight was above average, yet if I turn the torch down to the middle or worst still, low setting It's much dimmer than I expected. I'm not sure apart from eye glare from a rabbit I could see it well enough for a shot at distance (20yds or more maybe) lol? So I guess a red light would be pretty dim looking too? I guess it's something I will just have to try and see how it works out.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2014
  19. terry1001

    terry1001 Major Poster

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    Thanks for the compliment.
    I find that the problem with white light (or green come to that) is that using it ruins the sensitivity of your vision. It's one of the reasons why I don't (personal opinion here) much like the tubed nv monoculars etc as peering at the green screen makes me virtually blind in one eye for ages. If you only use a dim light then your eyes will quickly become adjusted and you won't need a lot of light. Another possible problem is using a scope set to a high magnification as this does reduce the amount of light actualy reaching your eye, no problem in daylight but bad at night.
    Some people have problems at low light levels or suffer from some form of colour blindness so there isn't a single definitive answer. When there is plenty of light about your pupils contract and this increases the depth of field of your vision so in bright light you can read a paper easily but in dim light you can't focus and need glasses - it's also an age thing unfortunately but don't ask me how I know.
    When lamping I use a 3 power setting red led torch (I know someone who makes them!) and I can see quite far enough to shoot at .22lr ranges and I can turn it down to work at a few yards for ratting. Just using red light does seem to be much better for me and it's what I recommend to others although, as I said,it's not the same for everyone. It doesn't take many minutes to get used to the red light and shooting is almost as easy as in daylight.
     
  20. mattyts

    mattyts Donator

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    Andy,I get what you're saying about the modes but,I was using mine last week and I think I've changed it somehow as now,if you turn it off on whatever mode and leave it more than a minute or two,once you turn it on,it goes back to that same mode.
     

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