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Question Accuracy checking by gunsmiths/manufacturers - do they?

Discussion in 'Anything Airgun Related' started by jesim1, Jun 22, 2014.

  1. jesim1

    jesim1 Kit bitch to the Stars

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    Hi Guys

    I was wondering about this kind of thing after reading about new guns having accuracy issues straight from the box, and then I kind of wondered onto second hand guns as well. :confused:

    So what I'm thinking, is there an industry standard to say if a gun is accurate? How accurate does a new gun have to be, and if you have accuracy issues with a second hand gun, do you just go to a gunsmith, or are their specialists who have a "thing" about it being just right that a normal gunsmith would just wave through as fine?

    I don't want this to be a dumb thread, so let's all agree from the start calibre has nothing to do with it and you have the best pellet for your gun, and the more you pay the better the expectation - to a point:rolleyes:. So I expect a difference from a £150 springer to a £1500 PCP, but compared to similar guns at a similar price they should be similar, but how do you/they tell/check?

    James
     
  2. Jackroadkill

    Jackroadkill Donator

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    Hmmm, difficult one; I would expect that a manufacturer who deals in large volumes would test a small sample out of every batch and that a bespoke / high end manufacturer would test a much larger sample, possible even each rifle. A lot of gunmakers don't make their own barrels, so it's possible that in theory at least each barrel (tube, choke and crown) has been QC'd before it arrives at the gunmakers.

    As we all know, the barrel is only part of the accuracy "picture"; there are several other factors to consider. Perhaps hold is one of these - clamped down, a springer that kicks like a mule when it reaches the shoulder, may perform well enough if the recoil can be totally eliminated from the equation.

    If I was making rifles I would want them to be capable of 10mm c-to-c groups off a bench at 30m, but implementing this may be very difficult, certainly in terms of time taken to test this vs. productivity.

    The short answer is that I don't know!
     
  3. larryking28

    larryking28 Busy Member

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    I remember my BSA Challenger coming with a target in it that had been done for test purposes,even had the testers name and date on it if I remember correctly.
    I think it was only done at 10yrds or so though :rolleyes:
     
  4. Titchgamer

    Titchgamer Honorary Member

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    Been a long time since I brought a new gun.
    But when I brought my Webley Xocet back in 199* something It came with a Target that had been shot 5 times at 25 yards if I recall correctly that had the shooters initials and date as well as the pellets used (Webley Laza glide ones of course :p)
    It had a good group and to be fair When I started shooting it in the back yard it was shooting fine out of the box with no scope.
    Now I doubt very much that would be done any more as it probably wasnt very cost effective, As JRK more likely to test 1 in 10 or something.

    As for second hands and the like it depends on the shop.
    I used to work for one company which Tested and Zero'd every gun be it open sights or scoped.
    I worked for another that only test fired but never sighted in so it really depends.
    Also The ones that were zero'd may not be to your hold etc.
    I zero'd many guns, But the springers would not necisarily still be zero'd if you shot them.

    In the end as long as you can shoot it straight when you get it then happy days!
     
  5. Steve K

    Steve K Posting Addict

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    Daystate claim to test every single rifle for accuracy, power and leaks etc but, i'm not so sure in reality that's the case?
     
  6. jesim1

    jesim1 Kit bitch to the Stars

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    I was shooting a few guns today, one was grouping 20mm at 40m, another closer to 35mm, so one is more accurate than the other, but would you say they were both "accurate"?

    So many people go on about how accurate their gun is, but I really wonder if half of it is in the imagination or their definition of accuracy is a bit of a low bar?

    James
     
  7. Jackroadkill

    Jackroadkill Donator

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    Hard to say; another shooter may have different results, I suppose.
     
  8. cloverleaf

    cloverleaf Super Moderator Staff Member Mod/Admin

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    Interesting thread :)

    My guess would be similar to JRK's thoughts - the best it's going to get with volume products is the testing of an example from a batch, or individual tests for higher end kit. I know Air Arms have a 25m(ish) indoor tunnel range; Daystate's old premises had a short indoor range (maybe 10-15yds) and outdoor space too - not sure what their new site is like.

    Accuracy testing can be a thorny subject. Personally I'd expect around 10mm c-c or better 10 shot at 35yds from my PCP rifles; however this would be with pellets that they like - in reality the manufacturers are only going to test with one pellet (their own brand) which may or may not be favoured by the gun. Factor this in and an acceptable group size with non-optimal ammo might grow to 15-20mm at this range.

    A while ago I read on some American retailers site (a link for which I now can't provide :rolleyes:) that Daystate expected a minimum of something like 10mm c-c at 20yds, which tbh is terrible. Not sure how reliable the info was though.

    In reality I suspect that most guns (regardless of manufacturer) are just banged together and pushed out the door, with accuracy testing only being carried out if the customer complains and the gun comes back.. even then the test is likely to be shot over a relatively short distance and judged by fairly liberal "acceptable" limits.


    Are those measurements c-c or edge to edge? Assuming these are PCPs I'd consider 20mm c-c at 40m to be acceptable (but could be better) and 35mm c-c to be pretty poor tbh. If measured edge to edge 20mm is reasonable at 40m but 35mm is still crap.

    I have a few number in my head for acceptable 10-shot group size for a decent PCP at various ranges (c-c measurement): 25yds - 6mm, 35yds - 10mm, 55yds - 20mm. Note that group size does not increase linearly with range, and that these numbers are just what I've come to know from experience. :)

    I think as range increases ammo selection becomes more important - I recently tested 3 different types of JSB pellets through my NJR (7.88, 8.44 and 10.34gn). At 25m 5 shot groups were all between 5 and 6mm c-c, so the largest value was within 20% of the smallest value. By 50m the group sizes varied from 15-25mm c-c; so the difference between the best and worst pellets had more than tripled to around 66% of the smallest value.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2014
  9. jesim1

    jesim1 Kit bitch to the Stars

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    TBH, I don't think I'm capable of this kind of accuracy:(.

    But this leads us back to my post - is it me or is it the guns?, and if it's the guns, what can be done to get them perfect, or can this even be achieved after manufacture? Again, this does not sound like something a gunsmith would want to get involved in? I can just see their face when you tell them you not happy you can only hit a 10p at 40m:D. As there is no standard that I know of it's hard to test a gun for real accuracy, not the 15m stuff that should all be in a tiny tight group.

    James
     
  10. Ballisticboy

    Ballisticboy Posting Addict

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    Both guns could be accurate as accuracy is the distance from the aim point to the mean point of impact. One has a lower dispersion than the other and it is the dispersion which may not be acceptable for one of them. Manufacturers cannot test for accuracy since it will depend on the shooter and sights as well as the gun. They could test for dispersion using some kind of standard mount but I would not for one minute think that every rifle would be tested particularly as the results could change between different batches of the same pellets. And, as has been said, what constitutes acceptable for one will not be acceptable for another so what target dispersion figure should they aim for?
    As for improving accuracy it will require a change of pellet design and gun/barrel design if you want to have real improvements otherwise you are stuck trying to exactly match pellet and barrel size to give you a perfect pellet launch.
     
  11. El Caro

    El Caro Keyboard Hero

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    Bowkett does a pellet guide with every Blueprint Tuned rifle he works on. It is an A4 sheet with 6 or 8 ten shot groups at 50 yards with different pellets. He says it is a guide to show suitable pellets for that rifle as they all vary, as do the pellets:D.
     
  12. Clubshot

    Clubshot Clubshot

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    Aware that Phoenix Mark 2's & Fast Fires are tested @ 25 Yards when Built - not signed off for Sale until satisfied

    Aware that New Models are field Tested by Serious Shooters @ Longer Distances -

    All Phoenix Air Guns are built around Exterminator Pellets - used in Design & Testing

    BOB/R
     
  13. engraver

    engraver Keyboard Hero

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    I remember owning a FWB 300s universal last year bought from an Auction from a family member for me.

    It was still boxed and probably not shot for a long time, and it had the original shot card from the factory with a single .177 sized hole.

    I thought I will shoot it to find out if it really can do what they say, so on a dark winter night the length of my garden I shot it using the accuracy international dioptre sights which was something I had never done, I couldn't see the pellet strikes until I collected the card, then when I did to my complete disbelief all the shots had gone into the black with the middle of the bull completely blown out.

    That was freehand at the back door, to this day I don't know of a spring airgun Ive shot that could literally split a blade of grass freehand, at about 30 years old.

    I sold it on with much regret but it was an awesome awesome airgun, and I doubt FWB would have let it through the door unless it could possibly win a gold medal, which of course they have and still do.
     
  14. Largerider

    Largerider Posting Addict

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    My Webley Alecto came with a accuracy proof target in the. Non of the others have.
     
  15. 177

    177 Donator

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    There's a seriously important element of gun testing (pellets) that can play a massive role in closing up groups.

    Reason I mention it is simple - not all pellet manufacturers follow the same standard and their data can be 'spun' to appear more favourable than it actually is.

    I don't know if it's still the case but, from memory, I seem to recall that if H&N used the same method of testing as Air Arms then their (H&N's) results would appear a heck of a lot better than they actually were.

    I'll have a rummage, in my copious free time :rolleyes: and see if I can find the sources I was looking at when that particular penny dropped.

    The point is that accuracy testing in guns, especially self contained spring/ram variants, is extremely subjective and relies on particular pellets and a particular hold.

    Put another way, a friend of mine can knock nails in with his spring rifle rig. If I pick it up the groups aren't as tight - that's down to me not having the same 'handle' on his gun that he does. The same can be said i reverse with a couple of my spring rigs when he shoots them.

    I do pretty well with my air rifles but there are much better shots out there than me. They could print better groups than I can with the same kit, so the trick is devising a testing method that removes the shooter as much as possible from the equation. That's no small task when the shooter plays the biggest part in coaxing consistent and repeatable results...
     
  16. Wynne G Oldman

    Wynne G Oldman Engaging Member

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    I assumed that all quality air guns came with a target test card, signed and dated, when new. I know that both mine did.
     
  17. mattyts

    mattyts Donator

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    What do you class as quality?
     
  18. jesim1

    jesim1 Kit bitch to the Stars

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    Nope, very few, none that I currently know off hand - I think someone mentioned Steyr, but not sure if it was a one off.

    James
     
  19. keithy

    keithy Keyboard Hero

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    My BSA R10 vc .22 came with a certificate to say the accuracy had been checked, As a point of interest it is more accurate than both my HW100s:eek:
     
  20. micken

    micken Engaging Member

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    ^ this and better IMHO. At 50m the best 10 shot group I have from a .177 full length HW100 is 8x13mm c2c So maybe 10mm c2c at 50m would be a good standard clamped/rested.

    Cheers,

    Mick
     

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