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12 ftlb limit

Discussion in 'Anything Airgun Related' started by dr.tigger, Aug 4, 2014.

  1. dr.tigger

    dr.tigger Well-Known Member

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  2. mattyts

    mattyts Donator

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    Yep,rifles from Germany and other countries could produce powers US British manufacturers at the time could only dream of so the limit gave the British makers more of a chance,not sure how well it worked though.
     
  3. sej016

    sej016 Donator

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    No convincing scientific or technical reason then :confused:

    And just how many of those UK manufacturers in business at the time are still in business ?
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2014
  4. Ganton Gunner

    Ganton Gunner Super Duper Moderator Staff Member Mod/Admin

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    so basically we have the limit cos in the 60's our gun makers were bloody useless at getting any power out of the guns
     
  5. Alf Tupper

    Alf Tupper Member

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  6. Lord Long

    Lord Long Engaging Member

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    12 ft lb limit, it's a joke and pretty much un enforceable ( if you choose to ignore it )...
     
  7. cloverleaf

    cloverleaf Super Moderator Staff Member Mod/Admin

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    I suspect that the 12ftlb limit might have come about through similar circumstances to the more recent anti-tamper on PCPs.

    In the '60s your best British offerings were managing 10-11ftlb while Yankie pump-ups (Benjamins etc) were producing closer to 18-20ftlb; it wouldn't surprise me if the British manufacturers went to the Home Office expressing "concern" about the energy developed by some imports as a convenient way of excluding them from the market by the back door :rolleyes:
     
  8. Alf Tupper

    Alf Tupper Member

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    I do wonder myself how many rifles are out there over the 12 ft lb limit - especially since PCPs have changed the potential for illegal power outputs with just a little DIY gunsmithing. I am pretty sure that anyone who does modify their weapon to make it over the limit is going to take extra care to make sure the Police never clap eyes on them or their weapon, and I'd also guess that given the cost of the rifle plus the savvy need to do said gunsmithing, they won't be in the hands of muppets who'd shoot your cat for a laugh or put a window through. I hope.

    I'm happy that there is a category for air weapons that allows people to shoot with no licensing other than by age, and that the grey area of tuned air rifles isn't a social problem because let's face it, this country is not over run by air gunners using home tuned Rapid 7s to shoot politicians or bring down jet liners. So out of sight and out of mind - and I don't mind that. may be it's not 'a joke' - maybe we have a working system? Possibly.
     
  9. Lord Long

    Lord Long Engaging Member

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    We do have a working system, a system that gives us a 12 ft lb limit, them almost forces gun makers to send out new guns doing only 10.5 ft lbs...just in case your particular pellet puts it over....
     
  10. dr.tigger

    dr.tigger Well-Known Member

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    I've got a new BSA r10. Chonod it at 11.5 ftlb with Bisly mags. Straight from the shop.
     
  11. JSB888

    JSB888 Keyboard Hero

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    Oh my ., I'm sure I just read a completely identical thread 2 mins ago. Déjà vu?
     
  12. Elk hunter

    Elk hunter Keyboard Hero

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    Are you still running hot!

    Andrew
     
  13. mrtho

    mrtho Busy Member

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    It's a nonsensical piece of legislation the truth behind it largely lost in the mists of time.If the shooting community had a pair it could have been repealed decades ago!
     
  14. Jackroadkill

    Jackroadkill Donator

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    Purely out of interest, what are people's opinions on if / why 12fpe maximum power is a problem?
     
  15. Alf Tupper

    Alf Tupper Member

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    Well to follow up on Lord Long's last post, and a couple of others... The limit is actually not quite 12 ft lbs per se, as there was a test case in Court where someone based a defence on their weapon being 12.1 ft lbs therefore submitted that it was only a minor excess. The verdict was that the Home Office wanted air rifles set at about 10.5 ft lbs but drew the Big Line at 12 ft lbs to allow a bit of wriggle room for shooters. Over was deemed to be over, but this is why a manufacturer will make sure the rifle is not close to the legal limit as Lord L says.

    I've got no problem with the current limit - from what I know in other west European countries, we're all pretty similar in what's allowed without a license, and I think we do rather well. France - 15 ft lbs, Czech republic 12 ft lbs, Poland 13 ft lbs, but Germany 6 ft lbs, Italy 5.5 ft lbs. Netherlands - no power limit but if it looks like a real gun it has to be licensed. (Weird but thanks wikipedia!). You can try to compare us to the USA if you want - but if you want their air rifle laws you can have their murder rate too. Canada is the opposite with a low limit as far as I can understand. So we're not at all out of step with the civilised world in my opinion; if you can find somewhere that has 40 ft lb limit, tell us where it is and whether you'd go and live there.

    I really wonder if we'd have this conversation if PCPs hadn't evolved, as 12 ft lbs on springers seems to be a good compromise on cockability and shootability, with a practical pest control range of 25-30 yards, so all in all a very practical ceiling. I'm of the view the line was drawn more or less at the top end of air rifle performance in 1969. I'd love to know whether there is any truth in the "stop powerful foreign imports" story - but until I see more positive proof such as Hansard when the Bill was passed, I take that story with a good pinch of salt. It's a bit more like the 70mph speed limit was decided on as not many cars at the time could exceed it, but more cars were appearing that could, so a line was drawn.

    Therefore I'm pretty ok about it - the limit has some common sense behind it; it's not a question of should there be a limit or we'd all get a Benjamin Rogue etc, but a question of where the limit should be drawn. There's thousands of happy gunners out there on 12 ft lbs - that's a pretty good argument to me that it's adequate at 12 ft lbs as a pest control weapon for small game, otherwise no one would be shooting them due to lack of power.
     
  16. martin22

    martin22 Donator

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    i say leave the limits as they are myself,those with a genuine interest make the most of them and have done for decades,develop the skills to use them sensibly and effectivly and thats part of the sport itself compared to powder burners.
    im sure the majority on here have families,kids and grandkids ect
    saw this on facebook earlier and ive seen many other posts along these lines on the various shooting groups on there,which to add i dont get involved in but do keep my eye out for any bargains for sale,start upping the power you start to up the appeal and i personally think that will start to attract more of the wrong'uns
    the picture says it all :facepalm:
    View attachment 100807
     
  17. trumpetier

    trumpetier Pro Poster

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    well put Alf Tupper :)
     
  18. Meteor62

    Meteor62 Major Poster

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    I shoot rabbits at max of 42 yards because that's my extreme hunting range so having any more power would be a waste of air after all a miss is a miss whatever the power. Also could you imagine shooting a spring gun at 18 fpe? Bet it would kick like a mule.
     
  19. Pidlar

    Pidlar Big Poster

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    Are you referring to the priest in the picture?
    Some permissions won't allow shooting especially Some equestrian centres. In which case if he's working with ferrets and nets then the priest is certainly less hassle and far safer than using the HW 45.
    Regards Stu.
     
  20. martin22

    martin22 Donator

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    In all the times I've been ferreting I've never used anything but my hands to neck the rabbits and I don't know anyone (and I know a quite a few ferreting lads) that walks round with hw45 and a priest to despatch them,do you do much ferreting? if so then you'll know how fast the rabbits start bolting,how fast you have to get the nets back on the holes,how awkward it would be with a hw45 and preist when your crawling under hedgerows and brambles to get to holes
    come on mate seriously,do you think they were intended for rabbiting?
    atb martin
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2014

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